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Old 05-28-2013, 07:24 AM   #1
Jeffrey Gibson
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Default Pete and the noncanonical writings as satire

Pete,

I note with interest that you have long been claiming not only that the non canonical NT writings are satires, and were expressly written as such, but would have been easily recognized by all and sundry within the Roman Empire of the 4th and 5th centuries CE , but especially by the educated class, as clear examples of that genre.

As a means of evaluating your claim, I wonder if you’d be kind enough to give as full a list as possible of the the formal and literary characteristics of Roman Satire. What do Menippean satire and the model of satire used by Ennius Juvenal, Persius, and Horace have in common? In what formal and literary and stylistic ways do they differ?

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Old 05-29-2013, 06:39 AM   #2
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Pete seems to be ignoring this. I wonder why? Jeffrey
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:26 PM   #3
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Thanks for the questions Jeffrey.

Firstly allow me to say that my claim is not that ALL of the non canonical texts are parodies and/or satires of the canonical texts. The sayings gospel of Thomas for example is a list of sayings prefaced with "JS" says, where "JS" is the Coptic nomina sacra for either "Jesus" or "The Healer".

The non canonical texts can be classified into "Gospels", "Acts" and other treatises, and my claim about the signature of satire and/or parody may be highlighted by examining first the non canonical Acts.

I wrote an essay about all this, the relevant section (from which the following has been taken) is available here.


Quote:

An alternative theory



Introduction

An alternative theory for the chronology of Greek authorship the Gnostic Gospels is explored that commences c.324/325 CE and as a direct reaction against the sudden appearance of the new testament canonical books in the Eastern Roman empire, particularly Alexandria, in the form of the Constantine's Bible. To do justice the account, a complete outline of Constantine's actions and measures prior to his supremacy is not necessary, and neither is the question of the authenticity of the canonical books of the new testament published by Constantine, and largely preserved to this day.


The New Testament is immediately ridiculed by the Alexandrian Greeks

It is sufficient to understand that the books of the Constantine bible were either totally unknown or little known, and that the Alexandrian Greeks soundly satired them from one street corner theatre to another. Eusebius confirms this fact when he writes:
"the sacred matters of inspired teaching
were exposed to the most shameful ridicule
in the very theaters of the unbelievers.


How Controversies originated at Alexandria
through Matters relating to Arius
Eusebius, "Life of Constantine", Ch. LXI
Recalling April Deconick's assessment that "Gnostic texts use parody and satire quite frequently ... making fun of traditional biblical beliefs", the following selection of citations taken from the Gnostic Gospels and Acts will come as no surprise to those who are familiar with Monty Python's "Life of Brian". Have we been digging up the heretical jesus jokes of the gnostics?


The Satire against the Jesus of the Canonical books was the Heresy of the Gnostic authors


As the self-appointed delegate of Jesus, and the one pushing the canonisation of the books of the Constantine Bible, Constantine took offence at the underground non canonical books appearing, because the stories made fun of what he perceived to be grave church business.

If it can be established that the signature of antichristian satire exists in the Gnostic Gospels etc, then it is quite obvious from all the above, such texts would attract the wrath of the orthodox, in proportion to their popularity with the populace. And by all reports, the Gnostic Gospels and Acts were very popular in their day. Consequently, if the following analysis has sufficient integrity, these books became heretical because they treated lightly a subject that was close to Constantine's heart. That was of course, Constantine's own popularity. People were laughing at these other stories. Why were they laughing? What was wrong with the stories in his set of books?



In the Gnostic Gospels .....

"To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition" (Woody Allen)

.

In the Gospel of Peter, Jesus is lead from the tomb by two giant figures whose heads reach to the sky. Jesus's head is described as being higher than the sky; while the cross , not content with immobility and silence, follows along behind Jesus at a walk, and speaks its own talk. It says "Yeah !"

In the Gospel of Philip, "Jesus came to crucify the world", but exactly where did Jesus often kiss Mary? On her forehead? on her cheek? on her lips? The manuscript has been damaged at that precise spot. Jesus could have often kissed Mary anywhere.

In the Gospel of Judas, Judas is presented as one of twelve "daimons". None of the twelve "daimons" can look at Jesus in the eyes. Jesus is presented as a "Head Daimion" or sorceror.

In The Gospel of Mary , Mary is presented in having exclusive knowledge not given to Peter. As a result, Peter is peeved. "Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?"

In the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Child Jesus as a malevolent trickster wizard. Death and destruction follow the child jesus. A child disperses water that Jesus has collected, Jesus then curses him, which causes the child's body to wither into a corpse, found in the Greek text A, and Latin versions. The Greek text B doesn't mention Jesus cursing the boy, and simply says that the child "went on, and after a little he fell and gave up the ghost," Another child dies when Jesus curses him when he apparently accidentally bumps into him When Joseph and Mary's neighbors complain, they are miraculously struck blind by Jesus. Jesus then starts receiving lessons, but arrogantly tries to teach the teacher instead.

In the Infancy Gospel of James, the Child Jesus is born in a cave with its Mithraic overtones.

In The Gospel of Nicodemus, the story is presented as being authored by two zombies who, while wandering around Jerusalem after the mass resurrection following Jesus's resurrection, are apprehended by the authorities, and are given pens and paper. The two resurrected scribes, known as Leucius & Karinus, independently record the Descent and Ascension, Jesus meets Adam. At the end, after finding that the accounts were word for word identical they provide a copy for Pilate, and a copy for the Jews, the two scribes disappear with a flash of light.

In the Gospel of Gamaliel Pilate weeps over the shroud.

The Gospel of Bartholomew "deliberately imitates the Lucan Acts"

.


In the Gnostic Acts of the Apostles .....

"Rhetoric does not get you anywhere, because Hitler and Mussolini [ed. and Constantine] are just as good at rhetoric.
......... but if you can bring these people down with comedy, they stand no chance." (Mel Brooks)
.

In the Acts of Andrew, Andrew prays and there is an earthquake. Andrew mentions banishing the demons from Nicaea. "At the gate of Nicomedia he met a dead man borne on a bier, and his old father supported by slaves, hardly able to walk, and his old mother with hair torn, bewailing. 'How has it happened ?' he asked. 'He was alone in his chamber and seven dogs rushed on him and killed him.' Andrew sighed and said: 'This is an ambush of the demons I banished from Nicaea.'" Who was banished from Nicaea?

In the Acts of Andrew and Matthew, the apostles Cast lots for world dominion (just like the Roman soldiers in the story of the crucifixion). Jesus is the captain of a water taxi to the "Land of the Cannibals" in order to rescue the apostle Matthew. Welcome aboard! Meanwhile, trapped in the "Land of the Cannibals" after drinking certain substances, Matthew, despite the fact that many are being eaten daily, closes his eyes to everything going on around him. Help was on the way.

The Acts of John is seen as docetic. Jesus does not leave footprints in the sand. John cannot seem to touch Jesus' physical body. John commands a legion of bed bugs. Jesus was constantly changing shape, appearing sometimes as a small boy, sometimes as a beautiful man; sometimes bald-headed with a long beard, sometimes as a youth with a pubescent beard. .... Sometimes when I meant to touch him [Jesus], I met with a material and solid body; but at other times when I felt him, his substance was immaterial and incorporeal, as if it did not exist at all ... And I often wished, as I walked with him, to see his footprint, whether it appeared on the ground (for I saw him as it were raised up from the earth), and I never saw it.

In the Acts of John the Theologian, the Jews write a book to the Emperor Domitian, comlaining about a "new and strange nation". As a result, Domitian flies into a rage an persecutes the "New and Strange Nation of Christians. This term "new and strange nation" is a recognised Eusebian trope. The author of this text thus wrote after Eusebius had coined the phrase.

In The Acts of Paul, the author uses Aesops Fables in the Baptised Lion Affair. Paul baptises a talking lion in the wilderness. When thrown to the lions at the conclusion Paul is saved from certain death by the christian lion in the arena. (One good turn deserves another!)

In the Acts of Peter, Peter resurrects smoked fish, makes dogs talk, and wins a very exiting miracle contest with Simon Magus.

In the (Syriac) Act of Peter, Peter heals the multitudes on his front porch, but forgets to heal his own daughter (because it is expedient not to heal her).

In the Acts of Peter and Andrew, the apostles travel hither and tither by means of a "bright cloud". (Beam me up Scotty!) The apostles call on a powerful Christian Arch-Angel to suspend a woman by her hair at the city gates while they pass unmolested out of town. Peter successfully passes a camel through the eye of a needle, twice.

In the Acts of Peter and Paul, the Jews hear that Paul plans to come to Rome and petition Nero to prevent this. Another version of Peter vs Simon Magus miracle contest is recounted, this time with Paul present, and enacted in front of the Roman Emperor Nero. Paul is presented as "bald", and attracts his bald shipmaster, Dioscorus, as a follower after delivering his son from death. Nero kills the bald Dioscorus instead of Paul. The Jews rejoice.

In the (Syriac) Acts of Philip, is Philip literate, not knowing either Greek or Aramaic? Philip commands a Christian angel to bind the Jew Ananias to the top of the mast by his big toes in a raging storm on account of his blaspheming in a sotto voice. "And the 495 men on the ship feared". Philip is a man of power and action, who battles armies with the cross: "When Philip crossed himself the ruler fell backward and all his troops." Ananias sets out presumeably to convert the Jews, as coerced by Philip. Impatient at his angelic qualities, the Jews kick Ananias to death and bury him in their synogogue. Philip resurrects Ananias, and commandeers a sick ox to assist retrieving the dead Jew from the synogogue. The commandeered sick ox runs on his mission, dragging his owner through the streets of Carthage. The ox and Ananias prostrate themselves before Philip. The city worshipped Philip. "Three thousand Gentiles and fifteen hundred Jews believed; the unbelievers left the city, and before sunset an angel slew forty of the Jewish priests for shedding innocent blood: and all who saw it confessed and worshipped. " People were impressed with the aggressive Christian angel slaying of forty priests. On the basis of this aggressive blood-thirsty revenge killings by the christian angel, people were converted to christianity.

In Acts of Pilate, when the Jews complain that Jesus healed people on Sunday, Pilate informs the Jews that Jesus "healed the lame and the bent, the withered and the blind and the paralytic, the dumb and them that were possessed, by the power of Asclepius", the 4th century Graeco-Roman healing god, whose most ancient and highly revered temples (and libraries) Constantine had just destroyed.

In the Acts of Thomas, the apostles are again "casting lots for the clothes of the nations", but Thomas refuses to abide by the lot he drew.for the journey to Indian. He does not want to go to India. He says: "'I am an Hebrew man; how can I go amongst the Indians and preach the truth?'" Jesus appears and directly commands Thomas to go to India, but Thomas directly refuses to obey. The next day, at the local markets, Jesus sells Thomas as a slave to an Indian merchant. The price for Thomas paid to Jesus was three litrae of silver unstamped. Jesus actually writes a deed of sale, saying: "I, Jesus, the son of Joseph the carpenter, acknowledge that I have sold my slave, Judas by name, unto thee Abbanes, a merchant of Gundaphorus, king of the Indians." Once in India, Thomas mispresents himself to the Indian King as a master builder. The Indian king gives Thomas a great deal of money to build a new palace. Thomas gives the money to the poor. Eventually, when the Indian King realises that Thomas is not a master builder and has lost all his money, "he rubbed his face with his hands, and shook his head for a long space. "

In the Acts of Titus, Paul fasts for seven days and causes the Temple of Apollo to be destroyed. (This matter of temple destruction by the Christians becomes a political reality immediately Constantine became supreme c.324 CE)

In the NHC 6.1 Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles, are there 11, 12 or 13 apostles? The text discloses that eleven apostles prostrated themselves (twice) on the ground in front of Lithargoel, in the oriental fashion of worship, made popular in Constantine's era. If Lithargoel is taken to be Jesus, an indentification made by every single academic commentator to date (alternatively, Lithargoel may be identified as a physician/priest of Asclepius) then Jesus cites the Bagavad Gita, in making reference to the "City of Nine Gates". Also if Jesus carries a codex in his left hand, that is similar to (not the same) as the codex carried by Peter, what is the codex that Jesus carried, and did the Christians instruct Martial on codex technology?



In other Gnostic Treatises and at Nag Hammadi .....

"Our generation is fleeing since it does not yet even believe that the Christ is alive" (NHC 11.1)




In the History of John the author names himself "Eusebius of Cæsarea" - "This history was composed by Eusebius of Cæsarea concerning S. John, who found it in a Greek book, and it was translated into Syriac, when he had learned concerning his way of life and his birth and his dwelling in the city of Ephesus, after the ascension of our Lord to Heaven".

In the Revelation of the Magi, The Magi, originally Sethians, get converted to Christianity - An entertaining story of the Magi, their history, their role in attending the birth of the Jesus Star, and their ultimate conversion to Christianity in a far-off land by Thomas Judas (of great fame in his "Acts of Thomas" where he converts the Indians from Hinduism and Buddhism). Why the Magi were required to be converted from their tradition to Christianity is rhetorical.

In The Apocalypse of Paul, some Gnostic wanted equal rights. Either Paul or Mary (depending on the versions) persuades God to give everyone in Hell a day off every Sunday. In the later 4th century Epiphanius refers to this as "a forged book full of unspeakable matter in the name of Paul".. Obviously Epiphanius couldn't see the joke.

In the NHC 5.3 First Apocalypse of James, Jesus dispenses Gnostic Passwords to James on how to ascend to the seventy-second heaven - a late instruction course on the appropriate passwords for the maximum ascension after crucifixion.

In the NHC 5.4 Second Apocalypse of James, Jesus dispenses a kiss to James - disclaimers are provided, but James dies a gruesome death.

In the NHC 7.3 Apocalypse of Peter, the author writes: "The Bishops are dry canals". Jesus is presented as laughing about the whole situation ... "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus."

In the NHC 7.2 Second Treatise of the Great Seth, deemed docetic, Jesus does not die on the cross, but laughs. (Jesus as purported narrator). "we were hated and persecuted, not only by those who are ignorant, but also by those who think that they are advancing the name of Christ, since they were unknowingly empty, not knowing who they are, like dumb animals. They persecuted those who have been liberated by me, since they hate them..."

In the NHC 1.2 Apocryphon of James , Peter and James miss their chance to go to heaven. More questions from the apostles are answered by the resurrected Jesus. Jesus invites Peter and James into the Kingdom of Heaven with him, but they are distracted by the other apostles' questions and miss their chance.

In the Letter of Peter to Philip (NHC 8.2), a Gnostic Sermon on the Mount of Olives is presented with a certain amount of melodrama. The apostles gather together, and treck to the summit of the Mount of Olives, where they persistently petition for the appearance of Jesus. "Then a great light appeared so that the mountains shone from the sight of him who had appeared. And a voice called out to them saying, "Listen to my words that I may speak to you. "Why are you asking me?"

In the NHC 1.1 Prayer of the Apostle Paul, the prayer consists of eleven sentences containing nineteen abrupt demands to a "psychic God" ("O Lord wont you buy me a mercedes benz?")

In the NHC 9.3 Testimony of Truth, John turns back the River Jordon! It also presents the story of the Garden of Eden from viewpoint of the serpent: It appears that the snake's advice was for garden variety of people who may have been contemplating a conversion to the "Christian principalities and authorities".of that generation's epoch. The snake may well be related to Panhellenic Asclepius, over whom the 4th century Christian revolution had been particularly unkind..... "The foolish, thinking in their heart that if they confess "We are Christians," in word only but not with power, while giving themselves over to a human death, not knowing where they are going or who Christ is, thinking that they will live while they are really in error, hasten toward the principalities and the authorities.".

In the Hypostasis of the Archons (also known as "The Reality of the Rulers"), the Apostle Paul is presented as declaring that the chief ruler is blind on account of his power and arrogance, and because the chief ruler, with his power, thinks that he is God. This description of the blind chief may be directed at Constantine. "I [Paul] have sent this (to you) because you inquire about the reality of the authorities. Their chief is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me."

The Sophia of Jesus Christ represents evidence of fabrication. Robin Lane-Fox summarises this as: "A pagan letter of "Eugnostos the Blessed" (NHC 3.3) was then given a christian preface and a conclusion (NHC 5.1) and represented in another copy (NHC 3.4) as the "wisdom" which Jesus revealed to his Apostles after his death.. See also the comments of Arnaldo Momigliano on the "Christianization of literature". The process of the construction of the Christian Sophia of Jesus Christ from the pagan letter of "Eugnostos the Blessed" has been purposefully documented - blueprinted - by the editor of the Nag Hammadi Codices.

In the NHC 11.1 "Interpretation of Knowledge" the Gnostics flee before the onrush of the Christian message, which was associated with reproaches and humiliations, and never got to hear the end bit of the story, that Jesus had been crucified. "they came to believe by means of signs and wonders and fabrications. The likeness that came to be through them followed him, but through reproaches and humiliations before they received the apprehension of a vision they fled without having heard that the Christ had been crucified." The text continues .... "But our generation is fleeing since it does not yet even believe that the Christ is alive" Here it would appear that some doubted whether the Christ ever lived at all in an historical sense. With extreme docetism, the text continues .... "And he was crucified and he died - not his own death, for he did not at all deserve to die because of the church of mortals. And he was nailed so that they might keep him in the Church."

In NHC 6.8 Asclepius 21-29 we find a pleasant discussion between Hermes and Asclepius. Asclepius might have been asking why, after Constantine utterly destroyed his highly revered and ancient temples, he ordered for the public execution of the head priests. Hermes to Asclepius "Trismegistus, who are these (daimons)?" "Asclepius, they are the ones who are called 'stranglers', and those who roll souls down on the dirt, and those who scourge them, and those who cast into the water, and those who cast into the fire, and those who bring about the pains and calamities of men."

In the NHC 6.5 fragment of Plato, Republic 588A-589B lies a cyptic Gnostic political message about the end of the Panhellenic Repubic. It is not a just a "poor Coptic translation of the Greek". The Coptic purposefully deviates from the original, and it is in the difference between the two versions, that a consistent message is delivered. See the analysis results of Comparing Plato' Republic in the Nag Hammadi coptic to the Original Greek. The monsters of Plato's ancient fables "have now become natural creatures", and are loose in the Republic presented in the Nag Hammadi version. Once they existed as many fabulous monsters in tales, but now they have become a single monster. Once the subject of tales in Plato, in the Coptic these monsters (now a single monster - the Christian State Canonical Book Religion) lived in the empire, and it was commanded to work in the empire. Things were grim for the non christians.

In the NHC Trimorphic Protennoia and other Gnostic texts, fully developed Neoplatonism is employed and thus these need to be dated after Plotinus.

In the many NHC texts seen to Sethian and Valentinian, we may be seeing the signature of such groups in exile from 4th century Alexandria, attempting to contend with the imperially motivated "Christianization" of the major cities, and of course the commissioning of the new "City of Constantine".


SUMMARY NOTE: Greek satire in the Alexandrian "Theatres"

Many, but not all, of the above references are evidence of satire and parody from a popularists standpoint, and it is clear that the Gnostic Gospels and Acts etc were designed to have great narrative appeal to their audiences. Some of the later above references, especially from the NHC have been included because they are able to be used as evidence to substantiate the claim that the original Greek texts were authored during a very specific political context, and at a very specific time, in reaction to the Constantine Bible, and its impact upon the law codes of the empire, especially the East. All these things (and many more that I have not noted here) are the signature of anti-christian satire, similar to the 20th century humor found in Monty Python's "Life of Brian". The Gnostics were taking pot shots at the canonical stories of Jesus and the apostles.



1st, 2nd, 3rd person "voices" - the "Greek theatres of the unbelievers"

The presence of multiple voices, or narrator voices, noted by many scholars in some key non canonical works, may be explored by seeing the texts as theatrical scripts, designed to have different narrators, and designed to be performed on a stage, that switch between narrators as the narrative progresses. Perhaps a good example of this is the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles, NHC 6,1.


This possibility is strengthened by the statement of Eusebius quoted at commencement of these citations from the Gnostic Gospels and Acts, and will serve again to conclude.

"the sacred matters of inspired teaching
were exposed to the most shameful ridicule
in the very theaters of the unbelievers.


How Controversies originated at Alexandria
through Matters relating to Arius
Eusebius, "Life of Constantine", Ch. LXI

We may add to the above the Toledot Yeshu. In the Toledot Yeshu Jesus is the result of a Roman soldier's rape of Mary. Christianity was the product of a Roman Soldier's rape. This should do for a start.


Contrasting the Humorless Drivel of the Canonical New Testament

The holy writ selected by Constantine was a humourless text. It's seriousness is typical of a Roman attitude towards authority. There are no jokes, Jesus does not laugh, etc, etc, etc.

In contrast I have highlighted above many references from the Gnostic Acts and Gospels and others texts which appear to be designed to raise a laugh from the audience. Hence my assessment of satire and/or parody, which is echoed somewhat by April Deconick, albeit with the use of the standard 2nd century chronology for some gnostic texts.




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Old 05-30-2013, 04:57 AM   #4
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Thanks for the questions Jeffrey.

Firstly allow me to say that my claim is not that ALL of the non canonical texts are parodies and/or satires of the canonical texts. The sayings gospel of Thomas for example is a list of sayings prefaced with "JS" says, where "JS" is the Coptic nomina sacra for either "Jesus" or "The Healer".

The non canonical texts can be classified into "Gospels", "Acts" and other treatises, and my claim about the signature of satire and/or parody may be highlighted by examining first the non canonical Acts.

I wrote an essay about all this, the relevant section (from which the following has been taken) is available here.
Great. Now will you answer the question that I asked you?

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Old 06-07-2013, 07:41 PM   #5
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The humourlessness of biblical studies is notorious.

If people don't see the humour they will never identify the satire.


Some people have described the non canonical texts as a "textual critic's nightmare", while Toto describes them as "pulp fiction".

But is there anyone here who sees any humour in these extracts from the Gnostic Acts and Gospels that I have collated above?

Did the Cross really walk and talk?







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Old 06-07-2013, 08:12 PM   #6
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The humourlessness of biblical studies is notorious.

If people don't see the humour they will never identify the satire.


Some people have described the non canonical texts as a "textual critic's nightmare", while Toto describes them as "pulp fiction".
Irrelevant to my question.

Quote:
But is there anyone here who sees any humour in these extracts from the Gnostic Acts and Gospels that I have collated above?
That's it? Humour is the signature of satire? It's also the signature of non satirical comedy. Sorry. This is only showing that you have no idea what the formal, linguistic, metrical, and stylistic characteristics of Greek satire are.

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Old 06-07-2013, 09:47 PM   #7
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This is only showing that you have no idea what the formal, linguistic, metrical, and stylistic characteristics of Greek satire are.
Really? Was that ever in doubt? Pete doesn't even try to pretend he knows what he is talking about any more. He's just going through the motions now. He hasn't come up with any new material in a while and the act is getting so stale that even his supporters at this forum have lost their zeal to defend these idiotic claims. It almost seems he is parodying himself.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:02 PM   #8
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But is there anyone here who sees any humour in these extracts from the Gnostic Acts and Gospels that I have collated above?
That's it? Humour is the signature of satire? It's also the signature of non satirical comedy.
If the humour is part of a large scale political movement or reaction I would tend to expect satirical comedy over non satirical comedy.


Quote:
Sorry. This is only showing that you have no idea what the formal, linguistic, metrical, and stylistic characteristics of Greek satire are.
I tended to think that political satire was part of Greek politics.

My claim is that the non canonical writings are in fact representative of a political reaction to the appearance of the canonical writings.







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Old 06-08-2013, 04:51 AM   #9
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If the humour is part of a large scale political movement or reaction I would tend to expect satirical comedy over non satirical comedy.
Er .. what? How would one distinguish satirical comedy from non satirical comedy. What are it's formal and literary features?


Quote:
I tended to think that political satire was part of Greek politics.
Of course it was, just as it is now. But how does this speak to, let alone answer, my question about what the formal, literary, stylistic, metrical characteristics of satire are?

Quote:
My claim is that the non canonical writings are in fact representative of a political reaction to the appearance of the canonical writings.
This is not an answer to my question. Telling me that the non canonical writings were political in nature (which a great deal of Greco Roman satire is as well) does not tell me what the formal, literary, linguistic, metrical, and stylistic characteristics of 4th century CE political satire was.

So once again you indicate that you have no idea what these are (otherwise you would have stated what these characteristics are) -- and therefore your claims that the noncanonical writings are satire is are worthless as they are undemonstrated. Why should anyone take your claims seriously?

To show that these writings are of the literary genre "satire", you have to show that they exhibit the same formal and literary and stylistic and linguistic characteristics that contemporary satire had and that Greek satirists employed to distinguish their writings as satire from any other genre. You haven't even come close to doing this.

In fact, all you've done is to run from doing this.

So, come on, Pete. Tell me what the formal and linguistic and stylistic and literary characteristics of 4th century Greek satire were.

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Old 06-08-2013, 05:59 PM   #10
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If the humour is part of a large scale political movement or reaction I would tend to expect satirical comedy over non satirical comedy.
Er .. what? How would one distinguish satirical comedy from non satirical comedy. What are it's formal and literary features?
Political satire is a significant part of satire that specializes in gaining entertainment from politics; it has also been used with subversive intent where political speech and dissent are forbidden by a regime, as a method of advancing political arguments where such arguments are expressly forbidden.

We can be sure that certain arguments concerning Jesus on and after Nicaea were expressly forbidden.

The humourless drivel of the bible has inspired generations of humourless academics.

Laughter was banned.


Quote:
Quote:
I tended to think that political satire was part of Greek politics.
Of course it was, just as it is now.

Thankyou Jeffrey.

Quote:
But how does this speak to, let alone answer, my question about what the formal, literary, stylistic, metrical characteristics of satire are?
The main characteristic is that the common people get to laugh out loud against the political regime which is oppressing them.

You may not understand this Jeffrey. Mel Brooks puts it like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel Brooks

Rhetoric does not get you anywhere, because
Hitler and Mussolini are just as good at rhetoric.
But if you can bring these people down with comedy,
they stand no chance.
I detect a great deal of comedy in certain of the non canonical acts and gospels (listed above) which is vacuous from the canon

We also know from the sources that the writings of Arius were very popular with the common people.

It is likely that these writings made them laugh.

The underlying hypothesis is that Arius (and the non canonical authors) were trying to bring Constantine's Canonical Christian Agenda down with comedy.


Quote:
So, come on, Pete. Tell me what the formal and linguistic and stylistic and literary characteristics of 4th century Greek satire were.
Can academics really define the characteristics of what makes the common Greek speaking people laugh out loud in the 4th century Jeffrey?

Is it simply just a matter of style? Or could it be the subject and content of the writings that made the common people laugh out loud?


The blasphemy laws that have protected the utterly humourless Christian message from being laughed at until recent centuries were no doubt implemented in the 4th century.

THOU SHALT NOT LAUGH AT JESUS and the APOSTLES.

Why were such blasphemy laws required?


And the answer is .....


The people were laughing at Jesus and the Apostles.


The sword put an end to the laughter.





εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia
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