Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 06-09-2013, 11:41 AM

Yes, it is - Menippean

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21102379884157

But there is a huge amount of debate about is it precisely that type and there are difficulties with precise definitions.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=i...satire&f=false

Clivedurdle · 06-09-2013, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Constantine to amass great riches

Is Julian's conclusion about his uncle! Is a central state church useful for that purpose? Render unto Caesar..and to God..

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-09-2013, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Yes, it is - Menippean

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21102379884157

But there is a huge amount of debate about is it precisely that type and there are difficulties with precise definitions.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=i...satire&f=false

Good. But that just tells me that it is a mixture of prose and verse. How else does it distinguish itself, if it does, from Roman Satire?

BTW, did you have access to all of the JSTOR article?

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 06-09-2013, 12:10 PM

Interestingly, the second link comments how satire was addressed against the gods, who were understood as fallible. The perfect xian god would have been understood as ridiculous.

No I don't have JSTOR access, but the second article I reference is more relevant. I get the impression you want to discuss types of satire, the second article is describing how Julian is trying to order the Caesar's against various criteria of for example power - therefore Mars, Philosophical caesars other gods etc, and that Constantine and Xianity would have been ripe for ridicule because they have minimal nuance and sophistication.

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-09-2013, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Interestingly, that discussion comments how satire was addressed against the gods, who were understood as fallible. The perfect xian god would have been understood as ridiculous.

As ridiculous? Or quite different in character from the greco-roman gods? And aren't the gods ridiculed because they are not what the Christian god was thought to be or what Plato thought the gods truly were if they were not to be the object of ridicule (cf. The Republic 2. 377e6-378a).

Sorry, but I don't think you know what you are talking about

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 06-09-2013, 12:36 PM

The second reference- Menippean Satire Reconsidered: From Antiquity to the Eighteenth Century
By Howard D. Weinbrot - comments about Lucian and how cynical he was about the gods, It also comments on the eighteenth century and later what is really bowdlerisation of the gods, making them nice.

The xian god being worshipped on the crystal sea is ridiculous in comparison to the psychological depth and nuance of the true gods.

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-09-2013, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Interestingly, the second link comments how satire was addressed against the gods, who were understood as fallible. The perfect xian god would have been understood as ridiculous.

If you think this is what all satire is addressed against, then you still have no proper understanding of what Greco Roman satire was invilved with.

Quote:

No I don't have JSTOR access, but the second article I reference is more relevant. I get the impression you want to discuss types of satire, the second article is describing how Julian is trying to order the Caesar's against various criteria of for example power - therefore Mars, Philosophical caesars other gods etc, and that Constantine and Xianity would have been ripe for ridicule because they have minimal nuance and sophistication.

No. I want the formal and literary and stylistic and metrical charactersitics of Julian Caesars and other Greco roman satires laid out so that we can see if the non canonical writings that Pete says are of the genre Greek satire actually have what they would need to have for Pete's genre claim to be true.

He has avoided answering my questions about these things because, as his continual red herring replies indicate, he doesn't actually know what these characteristics are (otherwise he would have stated them by now). You are not answering them because you apparently don't understand what the issue is and how Pete's claim is to be put to the test.

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 06-10-2013, 05:14 AM

Quote:

"Doctor, when I get up in the morning I feel dizzy for twenty minutes." "Get up twenty minutes later then"

Quoted by Mary Beard Confronting the Classics, originally from Philogelos.

Quote:

This is a strange place, and extraordinary place, and interesting. There is nothing resembling it at home. The people are all insane, the other animals are all insane, the earth is insane, Nature itself is insane. Man is a marvelous curiosity. When he is at his very very best he is a sort of low grade nickel-plated angel; at is worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm. Yet he blandly and in all sincerity calls himself the "noblest work of God." This is the truth I am telling you. And this is not a new idea with him, he has talked it through all the ages, and believed it. Believed it, and found nobody among all his race to laugh at it.

Moreover -- if I may put another strain upon you -- he thinks he is the Creator's pet. He believes the Creator is proud of him; he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes, and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to Him, and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea? Fills his prayers with crude and bald and florid flatteries of Him, and thinks He sits and purrs over these extravagancies and enjoys them. He prays for help, and favor, and protection, every day; and does it with hopefulness and confidence, too, although no prayer of his has ever been answered. The daily affront, the daily defeat, do not discourage him, he goes on praying just the same. There is something almost fine about this perseverance. I must put one more strain upon you: he thinks he is going to heaven!

He has salaried teachers who tell him that. They also tell him there is a hell, of everlasting fire, and that he will go to it if he doesn't keep the Commandments. What are Commandments? They are a curiosity. I will tell you about them by and by....

His heaven is like himself: strange, interesting, astonishing, grotesque. I give you my word, it has not a single feature in it that he actually values. It consists -- utterly and entirely -- of diversions which he cares next to nothing about, here in the earth, yet is quite sure he will like them in heaven. Isn't it curious? Isn't it interesting? You must not think I am exaggerating, for it is not so. I will give you details.

Most men do not sing, most men cannot sing, most men will not stay when others are singing if it be continued more than two hours. Note that.

Only about two men in a hundred can play upon a musical instrument, and not four in a hundred have any wish to learn how. Set that down.

Many men pray, not many of them like to do it. A few pray long, the others make a short cut.

More men go to church than want to.

To forty-nine men in fifty the Sabbath Day is a dreary, dreary bore.

Of all the men in a church on a Sunday, two-thirds are tired when the service is half over, and the rest before it is finished.

The gladdest moment for all of them is when the preacher uplifts his hands for the benediction. You can hear the soft rustle of relief that sweeps the house, and you recognize that it is eloquent with gratitude....

http://www.online-literature.com/twa...m-the-earth/3/

Reading about Julian's "Caesars" has raised many many problems about why precisely the xian beliefs took hold. It is as if there was not only a dark ages of civilisation, but also of humour.

I think there is a genuine question to research here - the relationships of humour, fun, comedy, satire, theatre, dance, celebration and this new state religion.

Quote:

Dancing in the Streets
A History of Collective Joy
by Barbara Ehrenreich

“Fascinating . . . An admirably lucid, level-headed history of outbreaks of joy from Dionysus to the Grateful Dead.”—Terry Eagleton, The Nation

Widely praised as “impressive” (The Washington Post Book World), “ambitious” (The Wall Street Journal), and “alluring” (The Los Angeles Times), Dancing in the Streets explores a human impulse that has been so effectively suppressed that we lack even a term for it: the desire for collective joy, historically expressed in revels of feasting, costuming, and dancing.

Drawing on a wealth of history and anthropology, Barbara Ehrenreich uncovers the origins of communal celebration in human biology and culture. From the earliest orgiastic Mesopotamian rites to the medieval practice of Christianity as a “danced religion” and the transgressive freedoms of carnival, she demonstrates that mass festivities have long been central to the Western tradition. In recent centuries, this festive tradition has been repressed, cruelly and often bloodily. But as Ehrenreich argues in this original, exhilarating, and ultimately optimistic book, the celebratory impulse is too deeply ingrained in human nature ever to be completely extinguished.

http://www.barbaraehrenreich.com/dan...thestreets.htm

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-10-2013, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

"Doctor, when I get up in the morning I feel dizzy for twenty minutes." "Get up twenty minutes later then"

Quoted by Mary Beard Confronting the Classics, originally from Philogelos.

Quote:

This is a strange place, and extraordinary place, and interesting. There is nothing resembling it at home. The people are all insane, the other animals are all insane, the earth is insane, Nature itself is insane. Man is a marvelous curiosity. When he is at his very very best he is a sort of low grade nickel-plated angel; at is worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm. Yet he blandly and in all sincerity calls himself the "noblest work of God." This is the truth I am telling you. And this is not a new idea with him, he has talked it through all the ages, and believed it. Believed it, and found nobody among all his race to laugh at it.

Moreover -- if I may put another strain upon you -- he thinks he is the Creator's pet. He believes the Creator is proud of him; he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes, and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to Him, and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea? Fills his prayers with crude and bald and florid flatteries of Him, and thinks He sits and purrs over these extravagancies and enjoys them. He prays for help, and favor, and protection, every day; and does it with hopefulness and confidence, too, although no prayer of his has ever been answered. The daily affront, the daily defeat, do not discourage him, he goes on praying just the same. There is something almost fine about this perseverance. I must put one more strain upon you: he thinks he is going to heaven!

He has salaried teachers who tell him that. They also tell him there is a hell, of everlasting fire, and that he will go to it if he doesn't keep the Commandments. What are Commandments? They are a curiosity. I will tell you about them by and by....

His heaven is like himself: strange, interesting, astonishing, grotesque. I give you my word, it has not a single feature in it that he actually values. It consists -- utterly and entirely -- of diversions which he cares next to nothing about, here in the earth, yet is quite sure he will like them in heaven. Isn't it curious? Isn't it interesting? You must not think I am exaggerating, for it is not so. I will give you details.

Most men do not sing, most men cannot sing, most men will not stay when others are singing if it be continued more than two hours. Note that.

Only about two men in a hundred can play upon a musical instrument, and not four in a hundred have any wish to learn how. Set that down.

Many men pray, not many of them like to do it. A few pray long, the others make a short cut.

More men go to church than want to.

To forty-nine men in fifty the Sabbath Day is a dreary, dreary bore.

Of all the men in a church on a Sunday, two-thirds are tired when the service is half over, and the rest before it is finished.

The gladdest moment for all of them is when the preacher uplifts his hands for the benediction. You can hear the soft rustle of relief that sweeps the house, and you recognize that it is eloquent with gratitude....

http://www.online-literature.com/twa...m-the-earth/3/

Reading about Julian's "Caesars" has raised many many problems about why precisely the xian beliefs took hold. It is as if there was not only a dark ages of civilisation, but also of humour.

I think there is a genuine question to research here - the relationships of humour, fun, comedy, satire, theatre, dance, celebration and this new state religion.

Quote:

Dancing in the Streets
A History of Collective Joy
by Barbara Ehrenreich

“Fascinating . . . An admirably lucid, level-headed history of outbreaks of joy from Dionysus to the Grateful Dead.”—Terry Eagleton, The Nation

Widely praised as “impressive” (The Washington Post Book World), “ambitious” (The Wall Street Journal), and “alluring” (The Los Angeles Times), Dancing in the Streets explores a human impulse that has been so effectively suppressed that we lack even a term for it: the desire for collective joy, historically expressed in revels of feasting, costuming, and dancing.

Drawing on a wealth of history and anthropology, Barbara Ehrenreich uncovers the origins of communal celebration in human biology and culture. From the earliest orgiastic Mesopotamian rites to the medieval practice of Christianity as a “danced religion” and the transgressive freedoms of carnival, she demonstrates that mass festivities have long been central to the Western tradition. In recent centuries, this festive tradition has been repressed, cruelly and often bloodily. But as Ehrenreich argues in this original, exhilarating, and ultimately optimistic book, the celebratory impulse is too deeply ingrained in human nature ever to be completely extinguished.

http://www.barbaraehrenreich.com/dan...thestreets.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAIGLkSMls

mountainman · 06-10-2013, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Reading about Julian's "Caesars" has raised many many problems about why precisely the xian beliefs took hold. It is as if there was not only a dark ages of civilisation, but also of humour.

I think there is a genuine question to research here - the relationships of humour, fun, comedy, satire, theatre, dance, celebration and this new state religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrAIGLkSMls

Good point Jeffrey.

As I have previously stated, getting a biblical scholar to discuss the historical possibility that any humour could have been directed at Jesus and/or the Apostles and/or the 4th century state religion is impossible. Biblical scholars are not equipped to deal with such possibilities, because the bible always was, still is, and always will be an utterly humourless monstrous tale.

Charles Freeman's thesis that the Greek intellectual tradition was suppressed by the Christian regime of the 4th century may be expanded to include the suppression of humour.

Only in the books of the heretics do we find humour: apostles resurrecting smoked fish, getting camels to pass through the eyes of needles, travelling hither and thither on bright clouds. This list is expandable - see above.

A number of non canonical acts open with the apostles casting lots for the countries that they will go to and preach and then convert to the centralised monotheistic state religion. This is a satire or a parody of the soldiers casting lots for the raiment of the Jesus figure during the passion scene.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-09-2013, 11:41 AM	#21
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Yes, it is - Menippean http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21102379884157 But there is a huge amount of debate about is it precisely that type and there are difficulties with precise definitions. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=i...satire&f=false

06-09-2013, 12:10 PM	#24
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Interestingly, the second link comments how satire was addressed against the gods, who were understood as fallible. The perfect xian god would have been understood as ridiculous. No I don't have JSTOR access, but the second article I reference is more relevant. I get the impression you want to discuss types of satire, the second article is describing how Julian is trying to order the Caesar's against various criteria of for example power - therefore Mars, Philosophical caesars other gods etc, and that Constantine and Xianity would have been ripe for ridicule because they have minimal nuance and sophistication.

06-09-2013, 12:36 PM	#26
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The second reference- Menippean Satire Reconsidered: From Antiquity to the Eighteenth Century By Howard D. Weinbrot - comments about Lucian and how cynical he was about the gods, It also comments on the eighteenth century and later what is really bowdlerisation of the gods, making them nice. The xian god being worshipped on the crystal sea is ridiculous in comparison to the psychological depth and nuance of the true gods.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.