Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 08-24-2013, 12:08 PM

We have the Smoking Guns-- Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have effectively DESTROYED the HJ of Nazareth argument forever.

1. It was ESTABLISHED in Hebrew Scripture by Jews that the Messianic ruler would appear c 66-70 CE.

2. There was no character called Jesus of Nazareth who was or Believed to be a Messianic ruler up to c 69-79 CE during the reign of Vespasian.

3. Vespasian was the Predicted Messianic ruler, Savior and Healer of the Empire.

Smoking Gun 1--Josephus' Wars of the Jews" composed c 75 CE

Josephus' Wars of the Jews 6.5

Quote:

But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth."

The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.

Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.

However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.

The TRIUMPHAL Entry of Vespasian, the Benefactor and Savior.

Josephus' Wars of the Jews 7.4.1

Quote:

And as this good-will to Vespasian was universal, those that enjoyed any remarkable dignities could not have patience enough to stay in Rome, but made haste to meet him at a very great distance from it; nay, indeed, none of the rest could endure the delay of seeing him, but did all pour out of the city in such crowds, and were so universally possessed with the opinion that it was easier and better for them to go out than to stay there, that this was the very first time that the city joyfully perceived itself almost empty of its citizens; for those that staid within were fewer than those that went out.

But as soon as the news was come that he was hard by, and those that had met him at first related with what good humor he received every one that came to him, then it was that the whole multitude that had remained in the city, with their wives and children, came into the road, and waited for him there; and for those whom he passed by, they made all sorts of acclamations, on account of the joy they had to see him, and the pleasantness of his countenance, and styled him their Benefactor and Savior, and the only person who was worthy to be ruler of the city of Rome.

And now the city was like a temple, full of garlands and sweet odors; nor was it easy for him to come to the royal palace, for the multitude of the people that stood about him, where yet at last he performed his sacrifices of thanksgiving to his household gods for his safe return to the city.

There is NOTHING of Jesus of Nazareth in Josephus' Wars of the Jews composed AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple and while Vespasian was considered the Predicted Messianic ruler, Savior and Benefactor of the Roman Empire.

aa5874 · 08-25-2013, 09:44 AM

Josephus is an extremely significant WITNESS from antiquity because he actually lived in the 1st century, lived in Galilee, was in Jerusalem, was in Rome, was a contemporary of Vespasian, the Predicted Messianic ruler and Savior.

Josephus should have been a contemporary of the supposed disciples and the apostle Paul who preached of and wrote about a crucified and resurrected Messianic ruler called Jesus, the Logos and God the Creator.

In the NT, the supposed 12 disciples and Paul were presented as Jews [Paul was a Pharisee in the Pauline Corpus].

Now, if the Messianic ruler called Jesus had ALREADY come as claimed in the Gospels and the Pauline Corpus then immediately we can see a massive problem for Josephus because he told Vespasian that he would be the PREDICTED Messianic ruler which Vespasian himself believed.

The Jews themselves, including Josephus, FOUGHT with the Romans c 66-70 CE with the expectation that a JEWISH Messianic ruler would emerge.

But even more fascinating is that Josephus claimed it was Jesus, the son of Ananas, who PREDICTED calamities in Jerusalem.

Jesus, the son of Ananus, predicted calamities in Jerusalem, c 62-64 CE, when Albinus was procurator of Judea. This Jesus son of Ananus was beaten to a pulp and declared a madman. See Wars of the Jews 6.5

By c 75 CE, when 'Wars of the Jews' was composed, if Jesus of Nazareth the Messianic ruler did actually exist and had disciples who wrote stories about him and the Pauline Corpus should have been well established in the Roman Empire then we would expect that Jesus of Nazareth the Messianic ruler, the Son of God, Savior, the Logos and God the Creator, to have had a major impact on the Jewish community far more than Jesus the son of Ananus.

In the Pauline Corpus, Jesus the Messianic ruler was equal to God and it should have been preached or documented since the time of King Aretas c 37-41 CE.

In Acts 26.28, Paul even attempted to convert Agrippa to the Jesus cult.

Acts 26:28 KJV

Quote:

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Josephus "Wars of the Jews" 6.5, completely contradicts the ENTIRE story of Jesus, the Messianic ruler, the Son of God, the Savior, the Logos and God the Creator in the Canon.

In the 1st century, The JEWS used their Scriptures and PREDICTED that a Jewish Messianic ruler would be revealed c 66-70 CE--NOT c 1-33 CE.

The JEWS fought against the Romans c 66-70 CE because their JEWISH Messianic ruler was NOT yet revealed.

The JEWISH Messianic ruler was expected to be ONE who FOUGHT AGAINST the Romans c 66-70 CE.

The Gospels and the Pauline Corpus are unsubstantiated Fables--their Messianic ruler is an invention.

Romans 1:7 KJV

Quote:

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

There was NO Jesus of Nazareth, a Messianic ruler, Son of God, Savior, Logos and God the Creator up to at least c 75 CE when "Wars of the Jews" was composed.

Wars of the Jews 6.5

Quote:

But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth."

The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular...

The NT Canon story of Jesus of Nazareth is fiction.

Josephus was a Jew who actually lived c 66-70 CE and FOUGHT AGAINST the Romans expecting a JEWISH Messianic ruler at the time of Nero.

Iskander · 08-25-2013, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

We have the Smoking Guns-- Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius have effectively DESTROYED the HJ of Nazareth argument forever.

1. It was ESTABLISHED in Hebrew Scripture by Jews that the Messianic ruler would appear c 66-70 CE.

2. There was no character called Jesus of Nazareth who was or Believed to be a Messianic ruler up to c 69-79 CE during the reign of Vespasian.

3. Vespasian was the Predicted Messianic ruler, Savior and Healer of the Empire.

Smoking Gun 1--Josephus' Wars of the Jews" composed c 75 CE

Josephus' Wars of the Jews 6.5

Quote:

But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth."

The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.

Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.

However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.

The TRIUMPHAL Entry of Vespasian, the Benefactor and Savior.

Josephus' Wars of the Jews 7.4.1

Quote:

And as this good-will to Vespasian was universal, those that enjoyed any remarkable dignities could not have patience enough to stay in Rome, but made haste to meet him at a very great distance from it; nay, indeed, none of the rest could endure the delay of seeing him, but did all pour out of the city in such crowds, and were so universally possessed with the opinion that it was easier and better for them to go out than to stay there, that this was the very first time that the city joyfully perceived itself almost empty of its citizens; for those that staid within were fewer than those that went out.

But as soon as the news was come that he was hard by, and those that had met him at first related with what good humor he received every one that came to him, then it was that the whole multitude that had remained in the city, with their wives and children, came into the road, and waited for him there; and for those whom he passed by, they made all sorts of acclamations, on account of the joy they had to see him, and the pleasantness of his countenance, and styled him their Benefactor and Savior, and the only person who was worthy to be ruler of the city of Rome.

And now the city was like a temple, full of garlands and sweet odors; nor was it easy for him to come to the royal palace, for the multitude of the people that stood about him, where yet at last he performed his sacrifices of thanksgiving to his household gods for his safe return to the city.

There is NOTHING of Jesus of Nazareth in Josephus' Wars of the Jews composed AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple and while Vespasian was considered the Predicted Messianic ruler, Savior and Benefactor of the Roman Empire.

Smoking Guns?

Those are not smoking guns; they are only spent matches, vieilles allumettes.

aa5874 · 08-26-2013, 10:11 AM

Josephus is a most significant WITNESS of antiquity.

Josephus was a contemporary of the time of the Predicted Messianic ruler that was ESTABLISHED by Jews based on Hebrew Scripture.

The Jews had ESTABLISHED that a Jewish Messianic ruler would emerge c 66-70 CE and it was for this most fundamental reason why the Jews FOUGHT AGAINST the Romans.

Effectively, the Jews BELIEVED that the Predicted Jewish Messianic ruler was ON EARTH c 66-70 CE.

Josephus' Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4

Quote:

But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth.".......

This passage is extremely significant. ONE of the JEWS would be the Messianic ruler of the WHOLE world c 66-70 CE.

The Predicted Jewish Messianic ruler was BELIEVED to be ON EARTH at the time of the WAR AGAINST the Romans c 66-70 CE.

Josephus' Wars of the Jews completely contradicts the Jesus story and the Pauline Corpus---there was NO established prediction of a Jewish Messianic ruler c 1-33 CE based on Hebrew Scripture.

Josephus wrote NOTHING of the predictions of Jesus of Nazareth but wrote of the predictions of JESUS Son of Ananus.

Josephus wrote NOTHING of the Pauline resurrected Messianic ruler called Jesus the Lord, Saviour, and Son of God but wrote of Vespasian as the ACTUAL Predicted Messianic ruler and Savior found in Hebrew Scripture.

Josephus' Wars of the Jews 6.5.4

Quote:

...Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea....

There was NO resurrected Messianic ruler up to c 79 CE in the Roman Empire called Jesus.

Josephus is a Smoking Gun-a Witness to the death of the HJ of Nazareth argument.

semiopen · 08-27-2013, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.

I did some research on Vespasian for Duvi's anti-Josephus thread.

Vespasian was in Egypt when he was raised to Emperor. He was essentially Emperor prior to that but he basically appointed himself.

Perhaps I misunderstand the quote, but it seems that the Josephus account isn't accurate in this respect.

Grog · 08-27-2013, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.

I did some research on Vespasian for Duvi's anti-Josephus thread.

Vespasian was in Egypt when he was raised to Emperor. He was essentially Emperor prior to that but he basically appointed himself.

Perhaps I misunderstand the quote, but it seems that the Josephus account isn't accurate in this respect.

For the purposes of aa's argument it doesn't really matter if Josephus was strictly accurate on this count. What matters is whether or not Josephus interprets events in such a way that he can state that Vespasian was the predicted messiah and, in fact, he does. Again, we have a case that if there had been a significant movement worshiping a would-be messiah in the 60's, a period of time in which Josephus was intensely interested, we would expect him to make mention of it. After all, Josephus claims to have thoroughly investigated the various branches of Judaism at the time. Where we expect to find clear evidence, we find likely forgeries. Everywhere we look for something concrete that establishes the fact that Jesus existed in the early first century, we find only questionable and paradoxical evidence.

mountainman · 08-27-2013, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

3. Vespasian was the Predicted Messianic ruler, Savior and Healer of the Empire.

Vespasian favoured Isis and Sarapis.

Quote:

There is NOTHING of Jesus of Nazareth in Josephus' Wars of the Jews composed AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple and while Vespasian was considered the Predicted Messianic ruler, Savior and Benefactor of the Roman Empire.

semiopen · 08-27-2013, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

I did some research on Vespasian for Duvi's anti-Josephus thread.

Vespasian was in Egypt when he was raised to Emperor. He was essentially Emperor prior to that but he basically appointed himself.

Perhaps I misunderstand the quote, but it seems that the Josephus account isn't accurate in this respect.

For the purposes of aa's argument it doesn't really matter if Josephus was strictly accurate on this count. What matters is whether or not Josephus interprets events in such a way that he can state that Vespasian was the predicted messiah and, in fact, he does. Again, we have a case that if there had been a significant movement worshiping a would-be messiah in the 60's, a period of time in which Josephus was intensely interested, we would expect him to make mention of it. After all, Josephus claims to have thoroughly investigated the various branches of Judaism at the time. Where we expect to find clear evidence, we find likely forgeries. Everywhere we look for something concrete that establishes the fact that Jesus existed in the early first century, we find only questionable and paradoxical evidence.

Half of aa's OP is taken up by

Quote:

The TRIUMPHAL Entry of Vespasian, the Benefactor and Savior.

Which again is a total lie.

Vespasian was Josephus's benefactor, so we might expect this kind of gushing.

If we discount Josephus, there isn't much documentation for the messianic view, only Tacitus I think, and even then he says that

Vespasian turned out to be a Judaean for technical reasons (like we might say

Aaron_Rogers is a Green Bayaean.

Quote:

Tacitus, Histories 5.13: The majority [of the Jews] were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world. This mysterious prophecy really referred to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, true to the selfish ambitions of mankind, thought that this exalted destiny was reserved for them, and not even their calamities opened their eyes to the truth.

I'm not sure how earth shaking the failure to mention Yoshke is.

stephan huller · 08-27-2013, 01:33 PM

I am sorry but I don't normally read these things but this jumped out at me:

Quote:

It was ESTABLISHED in Hebrew Scripture by Jews that the Messianic ruler would appear c 66-70 CE.

Pray tell where this document can be FOUND.

Grog · 08-27-2013, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

For the purposes of aa's argument it doesn't really matter if Josephus was strictly accurate on this count. What matters is whether or not Josephus interprets events in such a way that he can state that Vespasian was the predicted messiah and, in fact, he does. Again, we have a case that if there had been a significant movement worshiping a would-be messiah in the 60's, a period of time in which Josephus was intensely interested, we would expect him to make mention of it. After all, Josephus claims to have thoroughly investigated the various branches of Judaism at the time. Where we expect to find clear evidence, we find likely forgeries. Everywhere we look for something concrete that establishes the fact that Jesus existed in the early first century, we find only questionable and paradoxical evidence.

Half of aa's OP is taken up by

Which again is a total lie.

Vespasian was Josephus's benefactor, so we might expect this kind of gushing.

If we discount Josephus, there isn't much documentation for the messianic view, only Tacitus I think, and even then he says that

Vespasian turned out to be a Judaean for technical reasons (like we might say

Aaron_Rogers is a Green Bayaean.

Quote:

Tacitus, Histories 5.13: The majority [of the Jews] were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world. This mysterious prophecy really referred to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, true to the selfish ambitions of mankind, thought that this exalted destiny was reserved for them, and not even their calamities opened their eyes to the truth.

I'm not sure how earth shaking the failure to mention Yoshke is.

Sure, Josephus could be lying, making things up. It seems that he, at least, considered, or wanted to be seen as considering,Vespasian to be the messiah.

I don't share aa's faith that this is a smoking gun.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.