Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 08-14-2013, 06:22 PM

What does this possibly have to do with the topic at hand? You have two sources saying the same thing - a testimony which does not put Christianity in a good light.

stephan huller · 08-14-2013, 08:25 PM

And the bottom line is - does any sane person believe that Joannes Xiphilinus simply made up the reference out of thin air? Of course not.

mountainman · 08-14-2013, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

And the bottom line is - does any sane person believe that Joannes Xiphilinus simply made up the reference out of thin air? Of course not.

Does any sane historian believe that the 10th century Pseudo-Isidore made up hundreds of false references out of the texts of earlier (4th to 6th century) texts? You bet they do.

The bottom line is that Huller is not conducting himself as an historian interested in the actual sources. The bottom line is that a number of the 80 books now represented as the "History of Cassius Dio" are not the original books of Dio but are epitomes made of his (now lost) books made in the 12th century by Christian scribes.

Quote:

This isn't even worth discussing.

Sources are fundamental to the discussion of history.

Quote:

The same information appears in other sources (Hippolytus, Ref. 9.12)

So what are you saying here? That Cassius Dio borrowed from Hippolytus? It is far more probable that the 12th century epitomist of Dio borrowed from an earlier source.

Did you read the other extract I cited from Toto's source mentioning the "Thundering Legion". Is Cassius Dio cited as evidence that Marcus Aurelius's "Thundering Legion" was FFS Christian? Isn't this the assertion of Tertullian? It appears that the same epitomist borrowed from Tertullian?

Dio Cassius - Greek-Roman Historian

Quote:

While emphasizing politics, Dio took a great deal of interest in the religions of the empire. When discussing Pompey's capture of Jerusalem in 63 B.C.E., for instance, he included a rather long digression about the Jewish religion.

Dio's writings never mentioned Christianity, even though it was growing and attracting considerable attention during his lifetime. In discussing the burning of Rome in 64 C.E., he simply assumed that Nero was responsible, without any references to the possible guilt of the Christians.

When recounting the "miracle of the rainstorm" that presumably saved a Roman Army under Marcus Aurelilus, Dio repeated the official version, which attributed the miracle to an Egyptian magus, Arnuphis.

That is not what Toto's source reveals. It reveals the Christian version.

Don't you see the problem with the source cited by Toto?

Do you see it Toto?

The source you cited is from an 11th or 12th century Christian epitome.

Quote:

Incidentally, Hammer tentatively identifies the Marcia the nurse in the Acts of Judas Thomas to be our girl ...

Now you are citing the gnostic Acts of Thomas as a source of history.

Are you incapable of focussing on the question whether any of the original books of Cassisu Dio makes reference to Christians? The above article state he does not.

I have supplied a reference to the manuscript tradition for Dio.

Did you even bother to read it?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

stephan huller · 08-14-2013, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Does any sane historian believe that the 10th century Pseudo-Isidore made up hundreds of false references out of the texts of earlier (4th to 6th century) texts? You bet they do.

So because forgeries exist, the reference to Commodus's mistress being a Christian is forgery. Brilliant

Quote:

The bottom line is that Huller is not conducting himself as an historian interested in the actual sources. The bottom line is that a number of the 80 books now represented as the "History of Cassius Dio" are not the original books of Dio but are epitomes made of his (now lost) books made in the 12th century by Christian scribes.

And so what? The same point is made in the Philosophumena.

Quote:

So what are you saying here? That Cassius Dio borrowed from Hippolytus? It is far more probable that the 12th century epitomist of Dio borrowed from an earlier source

You are something else. People didn't know the Philosophumena existed until it miraculously turned up in the nineteenth century. Please put forward a plausible model for how two sources - entirely independent of one another - put forward the same understanding of history. The obvious answer is that Marcia was actually a Christian.

Quote:

When recounting the "miracle of the rainstorm" that presumably saved a Roman Army under Marcus Aurelilus, Dio repeated the official version, which attributed the miracle to an Egyptian magus, Arnuphis.

So what? Are you claiming that Marcia didn't exist? How is this 'like Marcia being a Christian'? Nobody doubts Dio's testimony - save only for pious believers. Yet you are putting forward the absurd notion that medieval monks made up this story - twice.

stephan huller · 08-15-2013, 12:06 AM

Duke Leto · 08-15-2013, 12:26 AM

Utterly irrelevant, but I find that Cassius Dio is far more interesting if you pretend he was related to Ronnie Dio.

Duvduv · 08-15-2013, 05:33 AM

It seems to me that it all did not have to be produced or come into being at the same time in the offices of Eusebius and Constantine. If it started with them early on, it could continue over the next century, and then of course among the scribes over the following centuries.

In fact there is no way of even knowing what "Eusebius" actually wrote any more than it is possible of knowing what "Josephus" actually wrote. The entire religion of the regime was in the hands of a relatively small number of literati, i.e. the clergy who possessed and distributed manuscripts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

I suppose it depends what one refers to by "conspiracy"? By definition, it refers to any collusions among parties to effect something illegal or nefarious. Did the American colonists conspire to declare independence from the king of England and establish self rule? Yes. Did they conspire to deceive people about their intention in order to gain and consolidate power? I doubt it.

When someone says that Constantine "conspired" with Eusebius and perhaps others to fabricate from pretty much whole cloth an entire religion, including all of its literature in a multitude of languages and styles, for the purpose of aggrandizing his power by using it to control the ignorant masses who yearn for salvation from their miserable lives if imperial oppression, they mean he conspired to nefariously pull the wool over the eyes of his subjects.

Sure it might be possible in theory, but the degree of collusion between parties that the theory would require (e.g., Eusebius could probably not have written all of the Christian literature alone) is staggering. We'd also have to assume that the common people were mere sheep waiting to be led to slaughter, and would eat up this literature without question. Even when the winner re-writes history, the winner cannot cover up every trace of the deception. Not every elite, especially among the pagans, would be so quick to jump into bed with "Con" Constantine and not leave a trace of their resistance in literature or archeological remains.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Why is the idea that Christianity emerged in the fourth century under the sponsorship of the new regime a "conspiracy"? Was the establishment of the United States with its official constitution in 1789 a "conspiracy"?

Duvduv · 08-15-2013, 05:38 AM

Yes, Jiri. However, the silence about Muhammad for two hundred years, not to mention the cited existence of a Quran, leads one to consider the possibility that the cut and paste job was actually put together after the emergence of the Abassids in Baghdad from a variety of pre-existing sources, which included the emergence of the prophet as the source of all of it.
There is no actual evidence that there was a sweeping conquest of MUSLIM Arabs into North Africa, or that there was an independent large sect of Shia before the 15th century. If there are questions about the traditional Muslim narrative they should not be discarded uncritically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Was the very possible emergence of Islam under the Abbasid caliphate to unify the Arabs in the 9th century a "conspiracy"?

What ? By 650, the Muslim Arabs conquered Persia and Egypt. The Abbasids overthrew the Umayyads in 749. Their caliphs, though nominally descended from the prophet's family, ruled an international empire relying on the local non-Arabic rulers, with their power base in Persia. The only place where the original model of Arabic expansion held was Maghreb and al Andalus which became an independent Umayyad caliphate in the 10th century.

Best,
Jiri

Huon · 08-15-2013, 10:15 AM

The content of this post #28 has already been posted in the OP
Questions about Emergence of Islam

What relation with Dion Cassius ?

Duvduv · 08-15-2013, 10:51 AM

Maybe first ask Jiri why he/she posted this continuation here. I was responding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

The content of this post #28 has already been posted in the OP
Questions about Emergence of Islam

What relation with Dion Cassius ?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-14-2013, 06:22 PM	#21
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	What does this possibly have to do with the topic at hand? You have two sources saying the same thing - a testimony which does not put Christianity in a good light.

08-14-2013, 08:25 PM	#22
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And the bottom line is - does any sane person believe that Joannes Xiphilinus simply made up the reference out of thin air? Of course not.

08-15-2013, 12:06 AM	#25
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337

08-15-2013, 12:26 AM	#26
Duke Leto Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,387	Utterly irrelevant, but I find that Cassius Dio is far more interesting if you pretend he was related to Ronnie Dio.

08-15-2013, 10:15 AM	#29
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The content of this post #28 has already been posted in the OP Questions about Emergence of Islam What relation with Dion Cassius ?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.