Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 08-16-2013, 02:33 PM

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Abbay...e/176281465436

This comments about a saint of 250CE. anyone know about this

Quote:

Saint Sernin'sarcophagus :

This is the masterpiece of the abbey church: a work of art in white marble of the Pyrenees.

It represents the arrest, the martyrdom and the burial of Saint Sernin (or Saturnin), first bishop of Toulouse in 250.

http://abbayedesainthilaire.pagesper...guidedtour.htm

Toto · 08-16-2013, 03:35 PM

Saturnin was one of the "Apostles to the Gauls" sent out (probably under the direction of Pope Fabian, 236 - 250) during the consulate of Decius and Gratus (250-251) to Christianize Gaul after the persecutions under Emperor Decius had all but dissolved the small Christian communities. . .

This all sounds quite dubious - a mishmash of story telling, legends, Mithraic themes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The lost Acts of Saturninus were employed as historical sources by the chronicler Gregory of Tours. The martyrology gave a genealogy for Saturnin: the son of Aegeus, King of Achaea, by his wife Cassandra, who, herself, was the daughter of Ptolemy, King of the Ninevites. The Acts placed Saturninus in the 1st century, made him one of the 72 disciples of Christ, placed him at the Last Supper. Legends associated with Saturninus state that after Saint Peter consecrated him a bishop, “he was given for his companion Papulus, later to become Saint Papulus the Martyr.”[1] Legend states that besides Papulus, Saturninus also had Saint Honestus as a disciple.

The detail from the Acts that is selected for remembering today describes his martyrdom: to reach the Christian church Saturninus had to pass before the capitol (still the Capitole de Toulouse), where there was an altar, and according to the Acts, the pagan priests ascribed the silence of their oracles to the frequent presence of Saturninus. One day they seized him and on his unshakeable refusal to sacrifice to the images they condemned him to be tied by the feet to a bull which dragged him about the town until the rope broke. (Tellingly, the identical fate was ascribed to his pupil Saint Fermin whose site of martyrdom is at Pamplona.)

The bull, it is said, finished at the place since named Matabiau (that is, matar ("the killing") and biau or bœuf ("bull"). An inversion of this martyrdom, the tauroctony, the "killing of the bull," is precisely the central rite of Mithraism, the most important icon in the mithraeum, a depiction of Mithras in the act of killing a bull. The tauroctony was either painted or depicted in a sculptural relief, sometimes on the altar. Two Christian women (puellae remembered as "les Puelles") piously gathered up the remains and buried them in a "deep ditch", that they might not be profaned by the pagans. It is not beyond possibility, in this part of Gaul, where even today the greatest bell among many in Toulouse is honored with the name "Le Grand Taur," that the deep ditch was in fact a mithraeum.

Huon · 08-17-2013, 06:30 AM

From this link :
http://www.philipcoppens.com/mithras.html

Quote:

In Toulouse (France), the cult of Mithras equally remains visible as the Mithraeum is retained as a crypt under the earliest church dedicated to the local saint Saturnin, evocatively named "Notre-Dame du Taur". There is even a suggestion that the Mithras cult was responsible for the bullfighting that occurs in this region. It is true that Saint Saturninus had a protégé, Saint Fermin, in Pamplona, a town that is world famous for its annual bullfight.
As can be seen in Toulouse, but equally San Clemens in Rome and many other examples, many Mithraea were turned into Christian churches. In fact, there is even one Mithraeum on Rome’s Vatican Hill, which was seized by Christians in 376 AD. Some also argue that many of the Mithraea then became dedicated to the archangel Michael, who was also the patron saint of soldiers.

Philip Coppens (25 January 1971 – 30 December 2012) was a Belgian author, radio host, and commentator.

It is not possible to excavate anything from an existing Church, so, the idea that Notre Dame du Taur is built over a mithraeum cannot be controlled.

A mithraeum has been found in Bordeaux in 1986, beneath a building which was under reconstruction. Inside it, there was the statue of a man with a lion's head.

Minimalist · 08-17-2013, 09:59 AM

Quote:

after the persecutions under Emperor Decius had all but dissolved the small Christian communities. . .

Interesting except there were no persecutions of xtians under Decius.

Quote:

The edict ordered that everyone in the Empire, with the exception of Jews, must sacrifice and burn incense to the gods and to the well-being of the Emperor in the presence of a Roman magistrate, and get a written certificate,called a libellus, that this had been done, signed by the magistrate and witnesses.[4] Numerous examples of these libelli survive from Egypt, for instance:[1]

To the commission chosen to superintend the sacrifices. From Aurelia Ammonous,daughter of Mystus,of the Moeris quarter,priestess of the god Petesouchos, the great, the mighty, the immortal, and priestess of the gods in the Moeris quarter. I have sacrificed to the gods all my life, and now again, in accordance with the decree and in your presence, I have made sacrifice,and poured a libation,and partaken of the sacred victims. I request you to certify this below.

There is nothing in these extant libelli about being forced to deny being a Christian, in contrast to the letter the Roman provincial governor Pliny the Younger had written to the Emperor Trajan in 112, in which he says he requires suspected Christians to curse Christ,[5] an indication that targeting or persecuting Christians was not a goal of Decius' edict.

Fr Wiki, citing Candida Moss and others.

As Moss notes, xtians seem to thrive on this idea that everyone is out to get them.

Huon · 08-18-2013, 02:24 AM

Another quote about Decius :
http://www.roman-emperors.org/decius.htm

Quote:

For the first time, if we are to believe Christian sources, an Empire-wide persecution of Christians was begun under Decius. It is perhaps noteworthy that Zosimus, an exaggerated proponent of traditional paganism and highly critical of Christianity, fails to mention this event. In fact, outside of Christian sources, we have no record of a comprehensive persecution. The state required all citizens to sacrifice to the state gods and be in receipt of a libellus, a certificate from a temple confirming the act. The rationale for the emperor's actions, however, is not entirely clear. Eusebius writes he did so because he hated Philip the Arab, who purportedly was a secret Christian. Probably the enmity was real, but it seems unconnected to the introduction of these policies. More likely, if Decius did indeed seek to persecute Christians, he was reacting to the growing visibility of the religion, especially in the city of Rome itself. One of the more prominent martyrs of the age was Fabian, the bishop of the imperial capital He was also apparently one of the earliest, being executed in January of 250.

Roger Pearse · 08-19-2013, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Another quote about Decius :
http://www.roman-emperors.org/decius.htm

Quote:

For the first time, if we are to believe Christian sources, an Empire-wide persecution of Christians was begun under Decius. It is perhaps noteworthy that Zosimus, an exaggerated proponent of traditional paganism and highly critical of Christianity, fails to mention this event. In fact, outside of Christian sources, we have no record of a comprehensive persecution. The state required all citizens to sacrifice to the state gods and be in receipt of a libellus, a certificate from a temple confirming the act. The rationale for the emperor's actions, however, is not entirely clear. Eusebius writes he did so because he hated Philip the Arab, who purportedly was a secret Christian. Probably the enmity was real, but it seems unconnected to the introduction of these policies. More likely, if Decius did indeed seek to persecute Christians, he was reacting to the growing visibility of the religion, especially in the city of Rome itself. One of the more prominent martyrs of the age was Fabian, the bishop of the imperial capital He was also apparently one of the earliest, being executed in January of 250.

What a curious set of comments, from the usually reliable Roman-emperors.org.

1. We have a bunch of ancient sources recording that a persecution took place under Decius, in which people like Origen were arrested and tortured.
2. We likewise have sources, including Pliny the Younger a century earlier, recording how Christians would not sacrifice.
3. We have a sudden demand that everyone should do so, and some of the certificates have been preserved.
4. No other group was at all likely to be affected.

Why suppose anything other than what the sources say; that an anti-Christian policy was implemented?

I do detest the falsification of history.

andrewcriddle · 08-19-2013, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

after the persecutions under Emperor Decius had all but dissolved the small Christian communities. . .

Interesting except there were no persecutions of xtians under Decius.

Quote:

The edict ordered that everyone in the Empire, with the exception of Jews, must sacrifice and burn incense to the gods and to the well-being of the Emperor in the presence of a Roman magistrate, and get a written certificate,called a libellus, that this had been done, signed by the magistrate and witnesses.[4] Numerous examples of these libelli survive from Egypt, for instance:[1]

To the commission chosen to superintend the sacrifices. From Aurelia Ammonous,daughter of Mystus,of the Moeris quarter,priestess of the god Petesouchos, the great, the mighty, the immortal, and priestess of the gods in the Moeris quarter. I have sacrificed to the gods all my life, and now again, in accordance with the decree and in your presence, I have made sacrifice,and poured a libation,and partaken of the sacred victims. I request you to certify this below.

There is nothing in these extant libelli about being forced to deny being a Christian, in contrast to the letter the Roman provincial governor Pliny the Younger had written to the Emperor Trajan in 112, in which he says he requires suspected Christians to curse Christ,[5] an indication that targeting or persecuting Christians was not a goal of Decius' edict.

Fr Wiki, citing Candida Moss and others.

As Moss notes, xtians seem to thrive on this idea that everyone is out to get them.

If you are required under criminal penalty to carry out a symbolic act which contravenes your religious principles then you are probably experiencing religious persecution. If the symbolic act is of an explicitly religious nature then you are almost certainly being persecuted.

The fact that the legislation is not primarily designed to attack your religion does not stop it being persecution.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 08-19-2013, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

From this link :
http://www.philipcoppens.com/mithras.html

Quote:

In Toulouse (France), the cult of Mithras equally remains visible as the Mithraeum is retained as a crypt under the earliest church dedicated to the local saint Saturnin, evocatively named "Notre-Dame du Taur". There is even a suggestion that the Mithras cult was responsible for the bullfighting that occurs in this region. It is true that Saint Saturninus had a protégé, Saint Fermin, in Pamplona, a town that is world famous for its annual bullfight.

Philip Coppens (25 January 1971 – 30 December 2012) was a Belgian author, radio host, and commentator.

Coppens may believe that there is a crypt under Notre Dame du Taur which is in fact a Mithraeum. But I can't find anyone else who says so. Anyone?

Much of the Coppens article is factually in error, I notice.

There are several churches in Rome where excavations under the floor were undertaken; notably San Clemente.

Quote:

A mithraeum has been found in Bordeaux in 1986, beneath a building which was under reconstruction. Inside it, there was the statue of a man with a lion's head.

For those interested, I have some material on the Bordeaux Mithraeum here, here (Cautes), here (Cautopates), here, here (lion-headed god) -- just like Jesus! --, here (rock birth) and here.

Roger Pearse · 08-19-2013, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

after the persecutions under Emperor Decius had all but dissolved the small Christian communities. . .

Interesting except there were no persecutions of xtians under Decius.

Please don't state a theory as if it was fact; particularly one contradicted by the data.

Quote:

As Moss notes, xtians seem to thrive on this idea that everyone is out to get them.

If you say so...

Roger Pearse · 08-19-2013, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Saturnin was one of the "Apostles to the Gauls" sent out (probably under the direction of Pope Fabian, 236 - 250) during the consulate of Decius and Gratus (250-251) to Christianize Gaul after the persecutions under Emperor Decius had all but dissolved the small Christian communities. . .

This all sounds quite dubious - a mishmash of story telling, legends, Mithraic themes

Yes, but remember: you were quoting Wikipedia! :-)

I wasn't clear whether the Acts of Saturninus existed or not. Some of the web pages I found rather suggested that they did, and had been augmented later. I can't find anything discussing what date they are.

Looking into it and updating as I go...

1. There seems to be something in "Ruinart, Acta Martyrum sincera et selecta, p.109." Which I find in a second edition on p.128 f, here: (a list of mss used is p. lxxix). It's not that long a text.

2. I can't find any reference at all to these acts in JSTOR.

3. Possibly this work is BHL 7495-6. (?)

4. I've just asked a friend if they fancy translating the thing.

5. There is also a much longer 7-8th c. Passio S. Saturnini (BHL 7491), edited in 2002.

6. More details here.

7. Have found a French translation here (PDF).

8. Intro states: "In its current state, the Passion of St. Saturninus is a late text, reworked in the second decade of the 5th century (certainly before 450 AD), two centuries after the death of the bishop, at the moment when his cult took its essor (?) thanks to the translation of his relics from the modest tomb where he had been buried into a new basilica. The author of it is very definitely a clergyman of Toulouse living at the time of bishop Exuperius, or soon afterwards."

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