Duvduv

The writings attributed to Josephus the son of Mattathias have been described as those a Roman stooge, though if there is good reason to assume the writings are composites then there is also reason to assume that this person did not exist, but was built on traditions attributed to Yosipon the son of Gorion.

We have discussed several times the inventions found in the Josephus writings. I was reviewing the story of the so-called wars in the Galilee, in particular those at Yodefata and Gamala (in the Golan). I am sure I not the only person who noticed that the mass suicide by lots of the soldiers of Josephus happened to incidentally resemble his story of Masada. Except that through a miracle only Josephus was left alive in Yodfata.

Then there is the story of how "Josephus" predicted that Vespasian would become emperor. So not only is this Josephus a great general and a serving priest but he was a major rabbinical authority.........despite the fact that the story replicates the events told in the Talmud (Gittin 56b) about Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai who was taken out of Jerusalem in a coffin to avoid the meshugene zealots and went to plead with Vespasian on behalf of the rabbinical center in Yavneh, at which time he called Vespasian "king".

And the story of Gamala also resembles Masada in several ways, as described by "Josephus". How convenient....It should also be mentioned that Josephus son of Mattathias, the alleged general and hero, but whose writings are filled with pure bunk is NOWHERE mentioned in a single ancient Jewish source in any capacity: not as priest, not as general, not as writer, not as prophet, not as rabbi. Nothing.

steve_bnk

Josephus whoever he was would have been no different than any other writers. A mix of first hand knowledge, a little travel, oral recounting, and literary license.

See Herodotus.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

'...Herodotus (/hɨˈrɒdətəs/; Ancient Greek: Ἡρόδοτος Hēródotos) was an ancient Greek historian who was born in Halicarnassus, Caria (modern day Bodrum, Turkey) and lived in the fifth century BC (c. 484–425 BC). He has been called the "The Father of History" (firstly conferred by Cicero), and was the first historian known to collect his materials systematically, test their accuracy to a certain extent, and arrange them in a well-constructed and vivid narrative.[1] The Histories—his masterpiece and the only work he is known to have produced—is a record of his "inquiry" (or ἱστορία historía, a word that passed into Latin and acquired its modern meaning of "history"), being an investigation of the origins of the Greco-Persian Wars and including a wealth of geographical and ethnographical information. Although some of his stories were fanciful, he claimed he was reporting only what had been told to him. Little is known of his personal history....

Although the factual accuracy of the works of Herodotus is defended by some,[55] others regard his works as being unreliable as historical sources. Fehling writes of "a problem recognized by everybody", namely that much of what Herodotus tells us cannot be taken at face value.[56]

The accuracy of the works of Herodotus have been criticized since his own era. Sparks writes that "In antiquity, Herodotus had acquired the reputation of being unreliable, biased, parsimonious in his praise of heroes, and mendacious". His ancient critics included Cicero, Aristotle, Josephus and Plutarch.[57][58] Cicero (On the Laws I.5) said the works of Herodotus were full of legends[59] or “fables”, and Harpocration wrote a book on "the lies of Herodotus".[60] Duris of Samos called Herodotus a myth-monger.[61] Voltaire described Herodotus as both "the father of history" and the "father of lies",[62] and Hartog more recently also called him "The father of all liars".[63]

The reliability of Herodotus is particularly criticized when writing about Egypt. Alan B. Lloyd states that as a historical document, the writings of Herodotus are seriously defective, and that he was working from "inadequate sources".[64] Nielsen writes that: "Though we cannot entirely rule out the possibility of Herodotus having been in Egypt, it must be said that his narrative bears little witness to it."[65] Fehling states that Herodotus never traveled up the Nile River, and that almost everything he says about Egypt and Ethiopia is doubtful.[66][67] About the claim of Herodotus that the Pharaoh Sesostris campaigned in Europe, and that he left a colony in Colchia, Fehling states that "there is not the slightest bit of history behind the whole story".[68] Fehling concludes that the works of Herodotus are intended as fiction.[69] Depew and Obbink concur that much of the content of the works of Herodotus are literary devices...'[70]

James The Least

Don't forget Josephus informing us that YHWH lived in Italy and was on Rome's side.

Steve Weiss

All ancient writings should be taken as fiction unless objectively verified. That being nearly impossible in the majority of cases, fiction must be the default position.

aa5874

You seem to have very little knowledge of the works of Josephus. It was Josephus who exposed to mankind the atrocities of the Romans where they massacred thousands of Jews.

Josephus exposed that Pilate the procurator of Judea was recalled by Tiberius for acts of genocide.

You won't find many things in the Talmud because it is a source of mythology and non-historical accounts.

You will hardly find any non Jewish writings about Yochanan ben Zakkai.

Maybe Yochanan did not exist.

Duvduv

Why don't you first address the points I raised before veering off into other matters?

aa5874

Something is radically wrong with your response. My post DIRECTLY addressed your OP.

Did you not state or imply that Josephus was a Roman stooge?

Your claim or implication is a fallacy. You show that you either have not fully read and understood the works of Josephus or is engaged in propaganda.

In the writings of Josephus the atrocities against the Jews by Roman Emperors and procurators were exposed.

Did you not mention the Talmud in your OP?

The Talmud is a source of mythology, fables and many of their accounts are not corroborated by non-Jewish writers of antiquity.

jdboy

Josephus's Wars of the Jews was approved by the Flavians. Josephus admits that Wars of the Jews was written to dissuade other nations from revolt.
In other words propaganda.

Duvduv

AA5874, you are not addressing the specific points that I raised about Josephus, Yodefata, Gamala, etc. in my opening posting. You are digressing into other issues. Please first address the substance of my points before digressing into other issues including your unsubstantiated claims about the Talmud (as compared to your treasured texts of Justin).

aa5874

Again, you are blatantly making fallacious statements.

Is not your OP about Josephus?

Please, I invite you to read the Title of your OWN thread.

"Josephus"

Did you not write this?

It is a fallacy that Josephus was regarded as a hero.

Please, the Talmud contains pure bunk found nowhere in ancient writings.

If Josephus was a Jew who wrote pure bunk then other Jews may have written pure bunk in the Talmud.

See http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_57.html

Please, examine the pure bunk in the Talmud gittin 57b.