Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-25-2013, 08:50 PM

This interview with Robert Reilly is showing up in my news feeds. It seems to relate to some discussions here.

Quote:

Interview with Robert Reilly
The Wynnewood Institute
August 20, 2013

You recently wrote a best-selling book entitled The Closing of the Muslim Mind (or via: amazon.co.uk), which raises the question: How do we re-open the Muslim mind?

I had the opportunity of asking one of the premier intellectual Muslim reformers the question: "If I could give you all the resources you would need, personnel and money, and a 20-year period, tell me what you would do to turn around the Muslim world." And he paused and thought for a minute, and then he said "I would re-Hellenize it." And that, of course, is the message in Pope Benedict XVI's [2006] Regensburg Lecture.

. . .

So for more than 10 years now I have been studying mainly Muslim theology-and what passes for philosophy and metaphysics and epistemology-to try to get to the source of why things have gone so wrong there. And I traced it back to an enormous intellectual drama in the 9th century in Baghdad between those who wished to give primacy to reason and those who wished to give primacy to pure will and power.

So you had, on one side, the first theological school in Islam that said, "God is rationality and justice," and the other side which said: "No, God is pure will and power. Rationality has nothing to do with Him and whatever He does is incomprehensible to us and He cannot be confined to what is thought to be reasonable or unreasonable."

(Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins have made a point of this. Bagdad was the center of scientific discovery until this theological innovation in Islam, but once the theologians rejected reason, scientific progress stopped.)

A conservative blogger has picked up on this:

Quote:

According to Christian doctrine, God is reason, and anything unreasonable cannot be of God. Indeed, as the Pope pointed out in his lecture, “In the beginning was the logos, and the logos is God, says the Evangelist. The encounter between the Biblical message and Greek thought did not happen by chance. The vision of Saint Paul, who saw the roads to Asia barred and in a dream saw a Macedonian man plead with him: ‘Come over to Macedonia and help us!’ (cf. Acts 16:6-10) – this vision can be interpreted as a “distillation” of the intrinsic necessity of a rapprochement between Biblical faith and Greek inquiry.”

. . .

Yusuf sees the answer of many contemporary problems being solved through education in the Liberal Arts. Islam does have a rich intellectual tradition, as Yusuf noted by pointing out the interesting history behind John Locke’s views on religious toleration. Edward Pococke, Locke’s teacher at Oxford, and a strong influence on his later views, studied in Syria and was a scholar of Islam. Yusuf claims that Pococke’s belief in religious toleration can be traced to the influence of the Muslim scholars he studied while in Syria. That the West’s tradition of religious freedom can be traced to ancient Muslim scholars is an astounding thought.

Bronzeage · 08-25-2013, 09:04 PM

One of the primary reasons the Islamic world lost their primacy in science was the resistance to the printing press.

Knowledge spread quickly across Europe as printing technology improved and became affordable to most people. The driving force was printing Bibles and religious material. This was never allowed in Islam, because all Koran scripture had to be written by hand.

metacristi · 09-07-2013, 12:29 PM

Reilly's book is an excellent account of Islamic philosophy, I recommend it to all those interested to understand how theology can sometimes put almost insurmountable brakes to curiosity and personal freedoms (valid even now). Personally I was shocked to see the extent of the disaster, those who think that time will solve the problems automatically are hopelessly far from truth. Reilly's argument is unputdownable in my view, in spite of a very strong opposition it is intellectually honest to talk, at least provisionally, of 'defective' theology and institutions in the case of islam (at least more 'defective as those in Christianity and Judaism, in the sense that they let much less gaps for innovation and non trivial change; some 'new atheists' may want to deny Christianity even this merit but they totally fail of course, their stance is nothing more than confirmation of strong unjustified bias against Christianity).

Personally I would argue that his line of argument can be extended well beyond (in my view what the Islamic world needs also is capacity to accept that Reason can have precedence over traditions and even revelation, only that can produce an islam fully compatible with liberalism; a Reason always the 'slave' of religion which can only quasi-confirm or fully confirm the holy books goes nowhere, valid also for shias or fundamentalist Christians).

I am not so optimistic as Reilly unfortunately, the basis for ash'arism is very strong in basic muslim traditions and holy book and only people capable to 'direct' religion where they want can succeed here. A quranic criticism on a par with Biblical criticism in the West is an absolutely necessary first step for this.

I would also point out to Toby E. Huff's books (The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution: A Global Perspective (or via: amazon.co.uk)) who shows magisterially how culture was determinant for the apparition of the Scientific Revolution (although he never goes out too far in his criticism of islam, he does not need that of course). Printing press was only one of the many problems which ultimately pushed the muslim world toward the disaster of today.

Quote:

If Spain had persisted as an Islamic land into the later centuries - say, until the time of Napoleon - it would have retained all the ideological, legal, and institutional defects of Islamic civilization. A Spain dominated by Islamic law would have been unable to found new universities based on the European model of legally autonomous corporate governance, as corporations do not exist in Islamic law. Furthermore, the Islamic model of education rested on the absolute primacy of fiqh, of legal studies, and the standard of preserving the great traditions of the past. This was symbolically reflected in the ijaza, the personal authorization to transmit knowledge from the past given by a learned man, a tradition quite different from the West's group-administered certification (through examination) of demonstrated learning. In the actual event, the founding of Spanish universities in the thirteenth century, first in Palencia (1208-9), Valladolid, Salamanca (1227-8), and so on, occurred in long-established Christian areas, and the universities were modeled after the constitutions of Paris and Bologna. - Toby E. Huff

Horatio Parker · 09-07-2013, 12:50 PM

Quote:

According to Christian doctrine, God is reason, and anything unreasonable cannot be of God. Indeed, as the Pope pointed out in his lecture, “In the beginning was the logos, and the logos is God, says the Evangelist. The encounter between the Biblical message and Greek thought did not happen by chance. The vision of Saint Paul, who saw the roads to Asia barred and in a dream saw a Macedonian man plead with him: ‘Come over to Macedonia and help us!’ (cf. Acts 16:6-10) – this vision can be interpreted as a “distillation” of the intrinsic necessity of a rapprochement between Biblical faith and Greek inquiry.”

The logos is intelligibility, not reason. Big difference.

Reason can't exist without intelligibility, but intelligibility exists prior to and exclusive of reason.

metacristi · 09-07-2013, 01:33 PM

Logos means primarily Reason though. Look after the word in Encyclopedia Britannica for example:

Quote:

Greek“word,” “reason,” or “plan”plural logoi in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. Though the concept defined by the term logos is found in Greek, Indian, Egyptian, and Persian philosophical and theological systems, it became particularly significant in Christian writings and doctrines to describe or define the role of Jesus Christ as the principle of God active in the creation and the continuous structuring of the cosmos and in revealing the divine plan of salvation to man. It thus underlies the basic Christian doctrine of the preexistence of Jesus.

Christianity itself lost partially Reason after 391 when it gained political power (with a shift from Aristotelianism toward Platonism, Augustine of course was one of the promoters of the idea that curiosity is anathema) but it fully rehabilitated it, at least in the West, after Thomas Aquinas (although it would need another few hundred years until enlightened Christians accepted that Reason can sometimes be more important than traditions). In the case of islam we can truly talk of a de-hellenization of muslim mind (much more visible in sunni islam), we still wait for a full rehabilitation of Reason* there.

*I witnessed once on the net a discussion between mathematicians, some university professors, from the West and an arab (probably from Saudi Arabia, who showed on that forum an alternative method of how to solve double integrals) where he always opened the posts with a phrase that it was Allah who gave him that idea; when answered by some mathematician that maybe he was the innovator he replied that he dislike philosophy because it can be used to criticise islam. Only way later I understood that this is a nice confirmation of Reilly (mathematics has always been a domain less affected by the downplaying of Reason in the Islamic world).

mountainman · 09-07-2013, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metacristi

Christianity itself lost partially Reason after 391 when it gained political power (with a shift from Aristotelianism toward Platonism, Augustine of course was one of the promoters of the idea that curiosity is anathema) ....

Earlier precedents may be cited.

(1) Constantine's statement at the Council of Antioch which berates the philosophers: "Socrates critical questioning ... menace to the state". This may be the precedent for Augustine's curiosity is anathema.

(2) The destruction of the Asclepian temple network which ended the medical traditions and knowledge from Hippocrates and Galen. See the rise of the Christian Saints of Medicine "Cosmas and Damian".

(3) The public execution of the Platonist Sopater c.336 CE.

RE: The "Re-Hellenization of Islam"

Quote:

Originally Posted by metacristi

A quranic criticism on a par with Biblical criticism in the West is an absolutely necessary first step for this.

I do agree with this because (IMO) the basis for such criticism is "Socrates critical questioning".

It seems that "Re-Hellenization" and "Critical questioning" go hand in hand.

mountainman · 09-07-2013, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

The logos is intelligibility, not reason. Big difference.

Reason can't exist without intelligibility, but intelligibility exists prior to and exclusive of reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by metacristi

Logos means primarily Reason though.

After "Christianization" it may now seem to mean this, but I think Horatio Parker's statement refers to its [Greek] origin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by metacristi

Look after the word in Encyclopedia Britannica for example:

Quote:

Greek“word,” “reason,” or “plan”plural logoi in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. Though the concept defined by the term logos is found in Greek, Indian, Egyptian, and Persian philosophical and theological systems, it became particularly significant in Christian writings and doctrines to describe or define the role of Jesus Christ as the principle of God active in the creation and the continuous structuring of the cosmos and in revealing the divine plan of salvation to man. It thus underlies the basic Christian doctrine of the preexistence of Jesus.

The Christians "De-Hellenised" the original meaning of the Hellenic "Logos".

The Islamic "holy writ" rode on the back of the success of the Christian "holy writ".

Horatio Parker · 09-08-2013, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metacristi

Logos means primarily Reason though.

Not in Plato. I should've been clearer about my context, sorry.

Reason is one of the four cardinal virtues along with justice, temperance, and courage. It's also part of the tripartite soul, along with desire and spirit.

The logos OTOH is everything that can be ascertained or communicated about the universe. The duality of reality consists of the visible world and its invisible but just as real intelligibility or logos. The logos therefore encompasses reason, since reason is intelligible, while reason uses the logos to find its way, because without the logos there would be no distinctions on which to base judgement.

Roger Pearse · 09-09-2013, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

Quote:

According to Christian doctrine, God is reason, and anything unreasonable cannot be of God. Indeed, as the Pope pointed out in his lecture, “In the beginning was the logos, and the logos is God, says the Evangelist. The encounter between the Biblical message and Greek thought did not happen by chance. The vision of Saint Paul, who saw the roads to Asia barred and in a dream saw a Macedonian man plead with him: ‘Come over to Macedonia and help us!’ (cf. Acts 16:6-10) – this vision can be interpreted as a “distillation” of the intrinsic necessity of a rapprochement between Biblical faith and Greek inquiry.”

The logos is intelligibility, not reason. Big difference.

Reason can't exist without intelligibility, but intelligibility exists prior to and exclusive of reason.

Tertullian refers to the logos as the "ratio" of God.

Horatio Parker · 09-09-2013, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

The logos is intelligibility, not reason. Big difference.

Reason can't exist without intelligibility, but intelligibility exists prior to and exclusive of reason.

Tertullian refers to the logos as the "ratio" of God.

I wonder what an Arian would make of that...

"Ratio" is a fascinating term. I was taught that a ratio was a mathematical relationship and therefore strictly numerical. But for the ancient Greeks numbers were more than an abstract accounting system. Ratios also applied to relationships such as "a king is to his subjects as a shepherd is to his flock". Not easy for the modern mind.

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08-25-2013, 09:04 PM	#2
Bronzeage Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Deep South, USA Posts: 7,568	One of the primary reasons the Islamic world lost their primacy in science was the resistance to the printing press. Knowledge spread quickly across Europe as printing technology improved and became affordable to most people. The driving force was printing Bibles and religious material. This was never allowed in Islam, because all Koran scripture had to be written by hand.

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