Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 06-10-2013, 11:11 AM

The point then is that Jesus is an utter distraction from the core myth that connects Christianity to the pre-existent Israelite mysticism. Isho (his Man) is more natural, more sensible. This doesn't mean that there may well have been a primitive Jesus myth - a particular human being named Jesus who was crucified etc. But all that we know about Christianity, the developed gospel narrative, the Pauline writings, the liturgy, the Christian religion as such - already had this more ancient mystical understanding incorporated into it. It's impossible now to separate 'primitive Christianity' from the more developed mystical expression of the religion, though, it is my estimation that a deliberate corruption effort - the same kind of idiotic 'neo-conservative' effort which told Jews that their late-second century religious practices were the same as that of the ancient Fathers even though the sacrifices were gone, they no longer had priests, no longer calculated Jubilees and sabbatical years properly etc - was encouraged to 'reintroduce' Jesus the man of God as a Galilean prophet-type and Christianity as an unsophisticated Galilean faith.

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-10-2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I didn't say that anthropos appeared in the text:

Quote:

Similarly Son = anthropos = " No man hath seen my Father except the Son,"

I was saying the Son is the Man who saw the Father.

But neither text says that.

Jeffrey

stephan huller · 06-10-2013, 11:47 AM

I think it appeared on the section from Theodotus but I will have to double check

stephan huller · 06-10-2013, 12:12 PM

Despite all1 this bother, he [Galatino] intends to say that the messiah was destined be call by the name "son of God2," we have answered it adequately, 1st Division of this Army3. Therefore, see and wonder at the providence of the Name, Who desired that his disciples and all who believe in him to this day would omit the letter 'ayin and call him "Yeshu4." And see what that indicates as initials!5 so that the memory of him. And see what that indicates as initials!5 so that the memory of him would remain for the generations, a son of Adam [human being] who has no salvation, because of the lack of the 'ayin,6 and so that we should believe that the redemption of Israel is destined [to come], for then we "shall see eye to eye7 when the Lord returns Zion" (Isaiah 52:8) [A Translation of the Magen Wa-Hereb by Leon Modena, 1571-1648 - Page 181 http://books.google.com/books?id=TKv...ed=0CC0Q6AEwAA ]

stephan huller · 06-10-2013, 12:25 PM

Here is the section from Theodotos that suggested to me the Son 'seeing' the Father = the Firstborn = the Heavenly Man

Quote:

9 Faith is not single but various. Indeed the Saviour says, "Let it be according to thy faith" ... but' the elect are those who have superior faith, for he says to them, " No man hath seen my Father except the Son," and " Ye are the light of the world" and" Holy Father, sanctify them in thy name."

10 But not even the world of spirit and of intellect, nor the arch angels and the First-Created, no, nor even he himself is shapeless and formless and without figure, and incorporeal; but he also has his own shape and body corresponding to his preeminence over all spiritual beings, as also those who were first created have bodies corresponding to their preeminence over the beings subordinate to them. For, in general, that which has come into being is not unsubstantial, but they have form and body, though unlike the bodies in this world. Those which are here are male and female and differ from each other, but there he who is the Only-Begotten and inherently intellectual has been provided with his own form and with his own nature which is exceedingly pure and sovereign and directly enjoys the power of the Father; and the First-Created even though numerically distinct and sus ceptible of separate distinction and definition, nevertheless, are shown by the similarity of their state to have unity, equality and similarity. For among the Seven there is neither inferiority nor superiority and no advance is left for them, since they have received perfection from the beginning, at the time of the first creation from God through the Son. And he is said to be "inapproachable Light" as" Only-Begotten," and "First-Born," "the things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and which have not entered into the heart of man,"(ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδε καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσεν οὐδὲ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου ἀνέβη) - and such a one shall not be found either among the First-Created or among men (οὐδὲ ἔσται τις τοιοῦτος, οὔτε τῶν Πρωτοκτίστων οὔτε ἀνθρώπων). , - but they "always behold the face of the Father" and the face of the Father is the Son, through whom the Father is known Yet that which sees and is seen cannot be formless or incorporeal. But they see not with an eye of sense, but with the eye of mind, such as the Father provided. [Ex Theod 9,10]

stephan huller · 06-10-2013, 12:34 PM

And just to clarify Theodotus's text:

Τὸν Πατέρα μου οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν εἰ μὴ ὁ Υἱός [Ex Theod 1.9.3]

My father no one has seen but the Son.

stephan huller · 06-10-2013, 12:47 PM

My original thought was that section 9 and 10 were connected because 9 ends with this statement and then 10 speaks about the Father being invisible and the angels only see the Son. My assumption was that εἰ μὴ here could mean 'only' as in "my Father no one saw (they) only (saw) the Son." As in:

and when the apostle leaves he is to take nothing only (= εἰ μὴ) bread

If the one who comes is merely passing through, assist him as much as you can. Only (= εἰ μὴ) he must not stay with you for more than two or, if necessary three days

1 Cor 7:17 Only (= εἰ μὴ) let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.

Jeffrey Gibson · 06-10-2013, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Here is the section from Theodotos that suggested to me the Son 'seeing' the Father = the Firstborn = the Heavenly Man

Quote:

9 Faith is not single but various. Indeed the Saviour says, "Let it be according to thy faith" ... but' the elect are those who have superior faith, for he says to them, " No man hath seen my Father except the Son," and " Ye are the light of the world" and" Holy Father, sanctify them in thy name."

10 But not even the world of spirit and of intellect, nor the arch angels and the First-Created, no, nor even he himself is shapeless and formless and without figure, and incorporeal; but he also has his own shape and body corresponding to his preeminence over all spiritual beings, as also those who were first created have bodies corresponding to their preeminence over the beings subordinate to them. For, in general, that which has come into being is not unsubstantial, but they have form and body, though unlike the bodies in this world. Those which are here are male and female and differ from each other, but there he who is the Only-Begotten and inherently intellectual has been provided with his own form and with his own nature which is exceedingly pure and sovereign and directly enjoys the power of the Father; and the First-Created even though numerically distinct and sus ceptible of separate distinction and definition, nevertheless, are shown by the similarity of their state to have unity, equality and similarity. For among the Seven there is neither inferiority nor superiority and no advance is left for them, since they have received perfection from the beginning, at the time of the first creation from God through the Son. And he is said to be "inapproachable Light" as" Only-Begotten," and "First-Born," "the things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, and which have not entered into the heart of man,"(ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδε καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσεν οὐδὲ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου ἀνέβη) - and such a one shall not be found either among the First-Created or among men (οὐδὲ ἔσται τις τοιοῦτος, οὔτε τῶν Πρωτοκτίστων οὔτε ἀνθρώπων). , - but they "always behold the face of the Father" and the face of the Father is the Son, through whom the Father is known Yet that which sees and is seen cannot be formless or incorporeal. But they see not with an eye of sense, but with the eye of mind, such as the Father provided. [Ex Theod 9,10]

No "heavenly man" here.

Jeffrey

stephan huller · 06-10-2013, 02:34 PM

I guess the "Only-Begotten" "Son" with a "face" is supposed to be a chicken or a cat

stephan huller · 06-10-2013, 02:50 PM

Theodotus explains John 1:1–18, as saying that the Only Begotten or Son comes forth from the Father and it is he that the Father makes him known to the aeons. He is anthropomorphic because he is Man = Primal Man/Adam Kadmion (to use the Kabbalistic term).

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-10-2013, 11:11 AM	#41
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The point then is that Jesus is an utter distraction from the core myth that connects Christianity to the pre-existent Israelite mysticism. Isho (his Man) is more natural, more sensible. This doesn't mean that there may well have been a primitive Jesus myth - a particular human being named Jesus who was crucified etc. But all that we know about Christianity, the developed gospel narrative, the Pauline writings, the liturgy, the Christian religion as such - already had this more ancient mystical understanding incorporated into it. It's impossible now to separate 'primitive Christianity' from the more developed mystical expression of the religion, though, it is my estimation that a deliberate corruption effort - the same kind of idiotic 'neo-conservative' effort which told Jews that their late-second century religious practices were the same as that of the ancient Fathers even though the sacrifices were gone, they no longer had priests, no longer calculated Jubilees and sabbatical years properly etc - was encouraged to 'reintroduce' Jesus the man of God as a Galilean prophet-type and Christianity as an unsophisticated Galilean faith.

06-10-2013, 11:47 AM	#43
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I think it appeared on the section from Theodotus but I will have to double check

06-10-2013, 12:12 PM	#44
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Despite all1 this bother, he [Galatino] intends to say that the messiah was destined be call by the name "son of God2," we have answered it adequately, 1st Division of this Army3. Therefore, see and wonder at the providence of the Name, Who desired that his disciples and all who believe in him to this day would omit the letter 'ayin and call him "Yeshu4." And see what that indicates as initials!5 so that the memory of him. And see what that indicates as initials!5 so that the memory of him would remain for the generations, a son of Adam [human being] who has no salvation, because of the lack of the 'ayin,6 and so that we should believe that the redemption of Israel is destined [to come], for then we "shall see eye to eye7 when the Lord returns Zion" (Isaiah 52:8) [A Translation of the Magen Wa-Hereb by Leon Modena, 1571-1648 - Page 181 http://books.google.com/books?id=TKv...ed=0CC0Q6AEwAA ]

06-10-2013, 12:34 PM	#46
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And just to clarify Theodotus's text: Τὸν Πατέρα μου οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν εἰ μὴ ὁ Υἱός [Ex Theod 1.9.3] My father no one has seen but the Son.

06-10-2013, 12:47 PM	#47
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	My original thought was that section 9 and 10 were connected because 9 ends with this statement and then 10 speaks about the Father being invisible and the angels only see the Son. My assumption was that εἰ μὴ here could mean 'only' as in "my Father no one saw (they) only (saw) the Son." As in: and when the apostle leaves he is to take nothing only (= εἰ μὴ) bread If the one who comes is merely passing through, assist him as much as you can. Only (= εἰ μὴ) he must not stay with you for more than two or, if necessary three days 1 Cor 7:17 Only (= εἰ μὴ) let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.

06-10-2013, 02:34 PM	#49
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I guess the "Only-Begotten" "Son" with a "face" is supposed to be a chicken or a cat

06-10-2013, 02:50 PM	#50
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Theodotus explains John 1:1–18, as saying that the Only Begotten or Son comes forth from the Father and it is he that the Father makes him known to the aeons. He is anthropomorphic because he is Man = Primal Man/Adam Kadmion (to use the Kabbalistic term).

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.