Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 07:43 PM

Here is the most succinct description of the pertinent section in 4 Ezra, from Raymond Brown Introduction to the New Testament Christology - Page 96:

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When Ezra sees a monstrous eagle, he is told (12:1 1) that it is "the fourth kingdom that appeared in a vision to your brother Daniel. In 13:3 one "in the form of a man" comes up from the sea and flies with the clouds of heaven. This superhuman figure destroys the forces of evil with flaming breath from his mouth and gathers a peaceful and joyous multitude. In his commentary M. Stone writes: "The man is interpreted as the Messiah, precreated and prepared in advance, who will deliver creation and direct those who are left." He maintains that the dream vision itself. independent of the interpretation, may have come from a pre-Ezra source; that source would have drawn from Dan 7 even as did the author of IV Ezra. All this evidence suggests that in apocalyptic Jewish circles of the 1st cent. ad the portrayal in Dan 7 had given rise to the picture of a messianic human figure of heavenly preexistent origin who is glorified by God and made a judge.151 Against that background Jesus, if he was familiar with apocalyptic thought, could have used "Son of Man" terminology.

But we should note that the 4 Ezra material thinks in terms of 'Man' (not Son of Man) like Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Moreover, I don't get this attempt to interpret Jesus as making the case for him being this heavenly anthropos figure. If there was a historical figure behind the Christian the attempt to identify Jesus as this character it happened independently of Jesus. It was Paul.

outhouse · 06-25-2013, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If there was a historical figure behind the Christian the attempt to identify Jesus as this character it happened independently of Jesus. It was Paul.

Exactly how I see it.

Paul's Jesus had to live in the heavens, because he was dead. Paul had to develop this mythical figure as he did to make his case for his apostleship.

Paul desperately wanted to be a real apostle.

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 08:37 PM

But I think that it isn't just what we call 'Paul' but the gospel too. It draws from 4 Ezra too. What do you have left to reconstruct a historical Jesus?

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 08:41 PM

I don't understand this:

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Paul desperately wanted to be a real apostle.

'the apostle' is a title of Moses. If there was a historical basis to Jesus, I am not sure that the historical person had to even be called 'Jesus.' I am increasingly doubtful that it would even matter. Someone crucified - perhaps someone of note. That's his profile. Dreams have more definition.

outhouse · 06-25-2013, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But I think that it isn't just what we call 'Paul' but the gospel too. It draws from 4 Ezra too. What do you have left to reconstruct a historical Jesus?

A martyred man at Passover stuck on a cross and tortured for fighting the corrupt temple known as gods house.

This also explains the wide distribution of the movement through the diaspora.

Paul didn't take the message to the people, the message did that on its own when people went home and planted the seed of OT mythology that grew.

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 10:25 PM

I don't know what you are talking about. The mystical ideas in early Christianity are like art and all arts needs an artist. There is no such a thing as an artistic collective with great art nor does art grow on trees or among the rabble. Paul was a visionary (a word over used today and misrepresented when applied to CEO of companies).

outhouse · 06-25-2013, 11:00 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

I don't know what you are talking about.

Keep pretending

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The mystical ideas in early Christianity are like art and all arts needs an artist.

Paul and the unknown authors did a fine job of painting that, using the OT as paint.

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There is no such a thing as an artistic collective with great art nor does art grow on trees or among the rabble.

There never was, only the popular paintings collected and placed together.

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Paul was a visionary

Sure. Just one of many, but a skilled wordsmith who's art survived.

aa5874 · 06-25-2013, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If there was a historical figure behind the Christian the attempt to identify Jesus as this character it happened independently of Jesus. It was Paul.

Exactly how I see it.

Paul's Jesus had to live in the heavens, because he was dead. Paul had to develop this mythical figure as he did to make his case for his apostleship.

Paul desperately wanted to be a real apostle.

The Pauline writer did not develop the mythical figure.

Do you remember it was claimed that Paul was seen of the resurrected Jesus AFTER over 500 people plus Cephas, the twelve, the Apostles and James?

See 1 Cor.15.

We already know enough Jewish Mythology--we have Genesis and the OT.

God created Adam and Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV-----And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 11:54 PM

And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last, the Lord was made a quickening spirit.

outhouse · 06-26-2013, 12:14 AM

I will say you are addressing mythicist largest mistakes

hats off to ya

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06-25-2013, 08:37 PM	#13
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But I think that it isn't just what we call 'Paul' but the gospel too. It draws from 4 Ezra too. What do you have left to reconstruct a historical Jesus?

06-25-2013, 10:25 PM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I don't know what you are talking about. The mystical ideas in early Christianity are like art and all arts needs an artist. There is no such a thing as an artistic collective with great art nor does art grow on trees or among the rabble. Paul was a visionary (a word over used today and misrepresented when applied to CEO of companies).

06-25-2013, 11:54 PM	#19
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last, the Lord was made a quickening spirit.

06-26-2013, 12:14 AM	#20
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	I will say you are addressing mythicist largest mistakes hats off to ya

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