Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 02:08 PM

Historically an examination of the relationship between 1 En 14 and Dan 7 shows that Dan 7 was patterned on 1 En 14. This concerns above all the throne imagery in Dan 7:9-10.78 The question is whether there are more correspondences. A closer examination of the vocabulary used about the monsters in Dan 7 and the Watchers and giants in the Watcher story indicates that some of the traits of the monsters are similar to the Watchers and giants.79 There are also similarities connected to the protagonists of the two visions, Enoch and the Son of Man. When Enoch is included in the heavenly council, he is called in Greek: Ο ανθρωπος ο αληθινος, ανθρωπος της αληθειας ο γραμματευς, “true man, man of truth, the scribe” (1 En 15:1). In Aramaic this would be אִישׁ קושטא ish qushta, or אֱנוֹשׁ קושטא enash qushta as a part of the phrase. The figure coming to the throne in Dan 7:13 is described as כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ kebar enash, “someone like a son of man."

There are more similarities between the two protagonists of the visions. When Enoch is taken to heaven, he records: “clouds were summoning me”(1 En 14:8). The Son of Man in Dan 7:13 arrives “with the clouds of heaven." 1 En 14:24 it is said: “one of the holy ones . . .brought me near.” I think we here can suppose the Aramaic verb brk, q4reb, in hafel ynbrkh, haqrebnI, “brought me near. This is the verb used in Dan 7:13: yhwbrkh yhwmdk, q4damZhI haqr4bZhI, “they brought him near to him.”

Accordingly we observe two visionary protagonists with some similar descriptions appearing in throne visions where the one, Dan 7, is dependent on the other, 1 En 14–15. It appears that the scribe of Dan 7 borrowed the language from 1 En 14 - 15 to create a transcendent scene for the enthronement of his es- chatological figure, the Son of Man. From the point of view of the Danielic scribe, this did not mean that his Son of Man was Enoch. The Son of Man in Dan 7 is described with royal features and has in this respect little in common with the Enoch of 1 En 14–15. But for the scribe of the Parables, this must have looked different. Daniel in fact saw much of what Enoch saw, including a figure designated “man” coming on a cloud and approaching near to the divinity. [http://books.google.com/books?id=kc6...iel%22&f=false ]

Toto · 06-25-2013, 02:25 PM

Enoch and the Messiah Son of Man: Revisiting the Book of Parables (or via: amazon.co.uk) edited by Gabriele Boccaccini

"The Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch" by Helge S. Kvanvig

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 02:53 PM

Here is how Gerd Theissen connects the 'Man' myth with 'the historical Jesus' in the eastern tradition:

Quote:

It (= the pre-existent Jewish myth about the 'Man' figure) surrounded his person with a supernatural aura. It gave him the decisive role in the drama between God and human beings in the present: it made the rule of God a historical experience in the present - in which on the one hand concrete present experiences became the mythical real presence of the rule of God, and on the other parables and symbolic actions became signs of a mythical reality which was not (yet) present.

This supernatural aura produced by the myth - a myth in which Jesus and his disciples themselves lived - was the cause of the charisma with which Jesus fascinated his followers and provoked his opponents. Jesus was a Jewish charismatic whose attraction derived from the fact that he gave the mythical, ethical and ritual sign language of Judaism new life from the centre of Jewish faith, namely from the basic axiom of monotheistic belief.

Of course this is stupid. But it is Theissen's attempt to reconcile the off-the-charts significance of myth in the traditional understanding of Jesus. It is important to note that Theiseen defines the myth in terms of the 'Man' figure from Enoch:

Quote:

The only 'title' which occurs frequently on Jesus' lips is the enigmatic expression 'son of man'. At that time, in everyday language it meant 'any man' or 'a man' and occasionally could also be a periphrasis for 'I'. Here, however, this meaning is not to be found in a lexicon but can always only arise ad hoc. Alongside this there is an expression from visionary language: talk of a supernatural judge at the end of days who looks 'like a son of man' (Dan. 7.14). The visionary-language tradition also emphasizes the humanity of this figure: the one like a human being is opposed to the power of the beasts, which embody the various bestial kingdoms of the world. He embodies a humane alternative to their empires. And in neither of these traditions is it exclusively related to a person. Jesus could have used the expression. Possibly it only became an honorific title through the use that he made of it. Probably Jesus was the first to give a term for any human being the connotations of messianic dignity. However, it does not make any difference to the expressive force of this central position of the term 'son of man' if we attribute this development first to primitive Christianity. The 'man' is the only expression in the Synoptic Gospels which primitive Christian imagination regarded as a characteristic term that Jesus used of himself. However one interprets it, in this way Jesus (or primitive Christianity) expresses a 'humanizing' of the myth. A figure designated by the term for 'the man' comes to the centre of the religious sign system. The comparative texts from elsewhere in Judaism about a lofty figure who is seen in visions always still contain a comparative particle: this figure is 'like a man' and 'like a son of man.' But here he becomes 'the man'. He comes into the centre of religious sign language. However, possibly that is only a post-Easter development. I shall be discussing this in the next chapter. [Theory of Primitive Christianity p. 39]

This is the core of the 'Jesus myth.' To talk about anything is else is utterly misguided and foolish.

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 04:52 PM

Back to Enoch and the Messiah Son of Man: Revisiting the Book of Parables (or via: amazon.co.uk) ( via: Amazon UK ) edited by Gabriele Boccaccini

Quote:

The Son of Man in the Parables and in 4 Ezra by Michael Stone

A number of essays in this volume mention 4 Ezra 13 in connection with the development of the Son of Man ideas. In my doctoral thesis in 1965 and in a number of subsequent publications,20 I proposed the hypothesis that a preexisting description of an expected cosmic human figure, whom we call the “Son of Man,” was taken over by the author of 4 Ezra, who treated it as a symbolic vision and wrote an interpretation of it.21 This was demonstrated by detailed textual and literary arguments. It is relevant to our discussion that the first part of the chapter, a preexisting tradition dealing with the Son of Man (13:1-11), was treated by the author of 4 Ezra (ca. 95 c.e.) as a symbolic vision to which he needed to write an interpretation.

The warrior “man” of the vision is described using ancient cosmic symbolism of the epiphanies of God, particularly his epiphanies as warrior. The interpretation suppressed the cosmic dimensions of the “man”and treated him as a symbol that needed explanation, just like “the lion”in 4 Ezra 12, or 2 Baruch's “light and dark waters.” Moreover, the elements the interpretation adds in its presentation of the redeemer figure are precisely those that have close connections with the rest of 4 Ezra. The implications of this analysis for our present concern are the following.

1. The vision of chap. 13 is older than 4 Ezra, although we do not know how much older. If the identification of the “man” in this vision with the Son of Man is accepted, then the vision should be treated as a separate source featuring this figure, quite distinct from the interpretation offered by the author of 4 Ezra. It cannot be treated as a product of the late first-century author of 4 Ezra, nor should it be exegeted in light of that book.
2. It seems to me that the interpretation could have treated the man of the vision as a symbol only at a time when the Son of Man dictated its own meaning, at least in the circles that produced 4 Ezra. After all, the interpretation plays down or removes all the special, cosmic features of the figure. This implies that, at the end of the first century C.E., eschatological human figure was no longer readily recognized.

outhouse · 06-25-2013, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

This is the core of the 'Jesus myth.' To talk about anything is else is utterly misguided and foolish.

At least you have narrowed it down.

Biggest problem I see with most mythicist is their trying to force fit other mythology into into Jewish shoes that has no chance of ever fitting.

The OT was factually used as a foundation, one doesnt need to look elsewhere just because the movement absorbed different mythological aspects from outside Hellenistic influences making the movement popular to all, as it grew. It didnt change its core beliefs.

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 06:34 PM

4 Ezra Chapter 13
1, 2The seven days passed; and the next night I had a dream. In my dream,3a wind came up out of the sea and set the waves in turmoil. And this wind brought a human figure rising from the depths, and as I watched this man came flying with the clouds of heaven.Wherever he turned his4eyes, everything that they fell on was seized with terror; and wherever the sound of his voice reached, all who heard it melted like wax at the touch of fire.5Next I saw an innumerable host of men gathering from the four winds6of heaven to wage war on the man who had risen from the sea. I saw that7the man hewed out a vast mountain for himself, and flew up on to it. I tried to see from what quarter or place the mountain had been taken, but I8could not. Then I saw that all who had gathered to wage war against the9man were filled with fear, and yet they dared to fight against him. When he saw the hordes advancing to attack, he did not so much as lift a finger10against them.He had no spear in his hand, no weapon at all; only, as I watched, he poured what seemed like a stream of fire out of his mouth, a11breath of flame from his lips, and a storm of sparks from his tongue. All of them combined into one mass ---the stream of fire, the breath of flame, and the great storm. It fell on the host advancing to join battle, and burnt up every man of them; suddenly all that enormous multitude had disappeared, leaving nothing but dust and ashes and a reek of smoke. I was dumbfounded at the sight.12Afterthat, I saw the man coming down from the mountain and calling13to himself a different company, a peaceful one. He was joined by great numbers of men, some with joy on their faces, others with sorrow. Some came from captivity; some brought others to him as an offering. I woke up14in terror, and prayed to the Most High. I said, ‘You have revealed these marvels to me, your servant, all the way through; you have judged me15worthy to have my prayers answered. Now show me the meaning of this16dream also. How terrible,to my thinking, it will be for all who survive to17those days! But how much worse for those who do not survive! Those who18do not survive will have the sorrow of knowing what is in store in the last19days and yet missing it. Those who do survive are to be pitied for theterrible20dangers and trials which, as these visions show, they will have to face. But perhaps after all it is better to endure the dangers and reach the goal than to vanish out of the world like a cloud and never see the events of the last days.’ 21‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘I will explain the meaning of this vision, and tell you22all that you ask. As for your question about those who survive, this is the23answer: the very person from whom the danger will then come will protect in danger those who have works and fidelity laid up to their credit with the24Most High. You may be assured that those who survive are more highly blessed than those who die.25‘This is what the vision means: The man you saw rising from thedepths26of the sea is he whom the Most High has held in readiness through many ages;he will himself deliver the world he has made, and determine the lot27of those who survive. As for the breath, fire, and storm which you saw28pouring from the mouth of the man, so that without a spear or any weapon in his hand he destroyed the hordes advancing to wage war against him,29this is the meaning: The day is near when the Most High will begin to30bring deliverance to those on earth. Then men will all be filled with great31 alarm; they will plot to make war on one another, city on city, region on32region, nation on nation, kingdom on kingdom. When this happens, and all the signs that I have shown you come to pass, then my son will be33revealed, whom you saw as a man rising from the sea. On hearing his voice, all the nations will leave their own territories and their separate wars, and unite in a countless host, as you saw in your vision, with a common intent35togo and wage war against him. He will take his stand on the summit of 36Mount Zion, and Zion will come into sight before all men, complete and fully built. This corresponds to the mountain which you saw hewn out,37not by the hand of man. Then my son will convict of their godless deeds the nations that confront him. This will correspond to the storm you saw.38He will taunt them with their evil plots and the tortures they are soon to endure.This corresponds to the flame. And he will destroy them without effort by means off the law--- and that is like the fire.39, 40Then you saw him collecting a different company, a peaceful one. They are the ten tribes which were taken off into exile in the time of King Hoshea, whom Shalmaneser king of Assyria took prisoner. He deported them41beyond the River, and they were taken away into a strange country. But then they resolved to leave the country populated by the Gentiles and go42to a distant land never yet inhabited by man,and there at last to be obedient43to their laws, which in their own country they had failed to keep. As they44passed through the narrow passages of the Euphrates, the Most High performed miracles for them, stopping up the channels of the river until they45hadcrossed over. Their journey through that region, which is called46Arzareth, was long, and took a year and a half. They have lived there ever47since, until this final age. Now they are on their way back, and once more the Most High will stop the channels of the river to let them cross.48‘That is the meaning of the peaceful assembly that you saw. With them too are the survivors of your own people, all who are found inside my sacred49boundary. So then, when the time comes for him to destroy the nations50assembled against him, he will protect his people who are left, and show them many prodigies.’ 51‘My lord, my master,’ I asked, ‘explain to me why the man that I saw52rose up out of the depths of the sea.’ He replied: ‘It is beyond the power of any man to explore the deep sea and discover what is in it; in the same way no one on earth can see my son and his company until the appointed day.53Such then is the meaning of your vision. The revelation has been given to54you, and to you alone, because you have given up your own affairs, and55devoted yourself entirely to mine, and to the study of my law. You have taken wisdom as your guide in everything, and called understanding your56mother. That is why I have given this revelation to you; there is a reward in store for you with the Most High. In three days’ time I will speak with you again, and tell you some momentous and wonderful things.’ 57So I went away to the field, giving worship and praise to the Most High58for the wonders he performed from time to time and for his providential control of the passing ages and what happens in them. There I remained for three days.

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 06:50 PM

4 Ezra 13 describes a scene in which the recipient of a vision sees something like a man brought up from the depths of the sea and flying on the clouds of heaven. Here, and in the surrounding passages, it is evident that the author of 4 Ezra is drawing from and expanding upon the son of man imagery from Daniel 7. In 4 Ezra 12:11, an angel tells Ezra that The eagle you observed coming up out of the sea is the fourth kingdom that appeared in a vision to Daniel your brother. But it was not interpreted to him the same way that I now interpret it to you.” Given the fact that this explicit reference to Daniel immediately precedes the coming of a figure with the resemblance of a man (Dan 7:13; 4 Ezra 1-12), as well as the mention of the clouds of heaven (Dan 7:13; 4 Ezra 13:3) and the sea being stirred by the wind (Dan 7:2; 4 Ezra 13:1), it is probable that 4 Ezra is basing his vision off of Daniel 7 with a new interpretation.

Like Daniel and the Similitudes, the one resembling a man in 4 Ezra shares many similarities with God. He comes riding on the clouds (4 Ezra 13:3), which, as noted above, is a motif used for God in the OT. He bums his enemies with the fire from his mouth (Ps 18:8//2 Sam 22:9), and the wicked melt before him (Ps 68:2). Furthermore, similar to Dan 2:34, 44, the man from the sea carves out a mountain with his hands (4 Ezra 13:6).

The author of 4 Ezra expands the messianic nature of the one resembling a man. The human-like figure in 4 Ezra 13 is also portrayed as a warrior and judge. The messianic figure takes his stand on Mt. Zion, gathers the righteous, and makes war against the wicked with his fiery breath. This is reminiscent of OT passages that were understood within a messianic framework such as Psalm 2 and Isaiah 11. As Collins notes, 4 Ezra contains a stronger hope for a Davidic messiah. In 4 Ezra 7:28-29, the messiah is referred to by God as 'my servant/son.' [Chad T. Pierce, Spirits and the Proclamation of Christ: 1 Peter 3:18-22 in Light of ... Page 83]

stephan huller · 06-25-2013, 06:59 PM

It is almost universally acknowledged that, as noted above, 4 Ezra was composed in Hebrew. However, no traces of a Hebrew text remain. Furthermore, since practically no direct evidence survives of any language version that was translated directly from the Hebrew, the 'original' Hebrew form of 4 Ezra remains, essentially, an unknown factor.

4 Ezra seems to have been translated from Hebrew into Greek at some time before 190 ce, when Clement of Alexandria first quotes the text in Greek. The only direct evidence for a Greek text is three citations that survive in Christian sources. Clement, in Stromateis 3.16.100, 3, apparently written between 190 and 200, quotes 4 Ezra 5:35. (Clement also appears to allude to 4 Ezra 14:18-22 in Stromateis 1.22.149, 3.) The Apostolic Constitutions, the present form of which apparently comes from 4th century Syria, cite 4 Ezra 7:103 (Apost. Constit. 2.14, 9) and 8:23 (Apost. Constit. 8.7, 6).

The form of attribution in Clement's citation is noteworthy: the quote is followed by the phrase 'Ezra the prophet says' ... Although the expression 'Ezra the prophet' is sometimes taken to represent Clement's idea of the title of 4 Ezra, this is uncertain. Clearly, however, Clement views the book and its prophecy as authoritative. Both of the quotations in the Apostolic Constitutions are unattributed. [James C. VanDerKam, William Adler Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity p. 103]

Bingo the Clown-O · 06-25-2013, 07:14 PM

Is Theiseen even aware of the allegations made by Michael Heiser, Mark S. Smith, et al. that Daniel 7 is barrowing imagery from Ugaritic mythology?

I would expect him (or anyone interested in this subject) to at least mention it.

Here’s an example from Heiser:

The Baal Cycle as Backdrop to Daniel 7: A Paradigm for Jewish Binitarianism and the New Testament’s High Christology

outhouse · 06-25-2013, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo the Clown-O

Is Theiseen even aware of the allegations made by Michael Heiser, Mark S. Smith, et al. that Daniel 7 is barrowing imagery from Ugaritic mythology?

I would expect him (or anyone interested in this subject) to at least mention it.

Here’s an example from Heiser:

The Baal Cycle as Backdrop to Daniel 7: A Paradigm for Jewish Binitarianism and the New Testament’s High Christology

Michael S. Heiser has done great work but how he follows a plurality in deities under Yahweh as a ongoing divine council all the way to the NT, is not followed by the majority of scholarships.

Most OT scholars look at the polytheism and henotheism as being redacted out under a monotheistic strict, Yahwist king Josiah, after 622 BC.

Theiseen is very knowledgable and im sure understands this wayward view. The fact he doesn't mention would indicate he doesn't follow it at all.

06-25-2013, 02:08 PM	#1
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	If Mythicists Are Going to Interpret the Gospel They Will Have to Learn Jewish Myths Historically an examination of the relationship between 1 En 14 and Dan 7 shows that Dan 7 was patterned on 1 En 14. This concerns above all the throne imagery in Dan 7:9-10.78 The question is whether there are more correspondences. A closer examination of the vocabulary used about the monsters in Dan 7 and the Watchers and giants in the Watcher story indicates that some of the traits of the monsters are similar to the Watchers and giants.79 There are also similarities connected to the protagonists of the two visions, Enoch and the Son of Man. When Enoch is included in the heavenly council, he is called in Greek: Ο ανθρωπος ο αληθινος, ανθρωπος της αληθειας ο γραμματευς, “true man, man of truth, the scribe” (1 En 15:1). In Aramaic this would be אִישׁ קושטא ish qushta, or אֱנוֹשׁ קושטא enash qushta as a part of the phrase. The figure coming to the throne in Dan 7:13 is described as כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ kebar enash, “someone like a son of man." There are more similarities between the two protagonists of the visions. When Enoch is taken to heaven, he records: “clouds were summoning me”(1 En 14:8). The Son of Man in Dan 7:13 arrives “with the clouds of heaven." 1 En 14:24 it is said: “one of the holy ones . . .brought me near.” I think we here can suppose the Aramaic verb brk, q4reb, in hafel ynbrkh, haqrebnI, “brought me near. This is the verb used in Dan 7:13: yhwbrkh yhwmdk, q4damZhI haqr4bZhI, “they brought him near to him.” Accordingly we observe two visionary protagonists with some similar descriptions appearing in throne visions where the one, Dan 7, is dependent on the other, 1 En 14–15. It appears that the scribe of Dan 7 borrowed the language from 1 En 14 - 15 to create a transcendent scene for the enthronement of his es- chatological figure, the Son of Man. From the point of view of the Danielic scribe, this did not mean that his Son of Man was Enoch. The Son of Man in Dan 7 is described with royal features and has in this respect little in common with the Enoch of 1 En 14–15. But for the scribe of the Parables, this must have looked different. Daniel in fact saw much of what Enoch saw, including a figure designated “man” coming on a cloud and approaching near to the divinity. [http://books.google.com/books?id=kc6...iel%22&f=false ]

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06-25-2013, 02:25 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Enoch and the Messiah Son of Man: Revisiting the Book of Parables (or via: amazon.co.uk) edited by Gabriele Boccaccini "The Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch" by Helge S. Kvanvig

06-25-2013, 06:34 PM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	4 Ezra Chapter 13 1, 2The seven days passed; and the next night I had a dream. In my dream,3a wind came up out of the sea and set the waves in turmoil. And this wind brought a human figure rising from the depths, and as I watched this man came flying with the clouds of heaven.Wherever he turned his4eyes, everything that they fell on was seized with terror; and wherever the sound of his voice reached, all who heard it melted like wax at the touch of fire.5Next I saw an innumerable host of men gathering from the four winds6of heaven to wage war on the man who had risen from the sea. I saw that7the man hewed out a vast mountain for himself, and flew up on to it. I tried to see from what quarter or place the mountain had been taken, but I8could not. Then I saw that all who had gathered to wage war against the9man were filled with fear, and yet they dared to fight against him. When he saw the hordes advancing to attack, he did not so much as lift a finger10against them.He had no spear in his hand, no weapon at all; only, as I watched, he poured what seemed like a stream of fire out of his mouth, a11breath of flame from his lips, and a storm of sparks from his tongue. All of them combined into one mass ---the stream of fire, the breath of flame, and the great storm. It fell on the host advancing to join battle, and burnt up every man of them; suddenly all that enormous multitude had disappeared, leaving nothing but dust and ashes and a reek of smoke. I was dumbfounded at the sight.12Afterthat, I saw the man coming down from the mountain and calling13to himself a different company, a peaceful one. He was joined by great numbers of men, some with joy on their faces, others with sorrow. Some came from captivity; some brought others to him as an offering. I woke up14in terror, and prayed to the Most High. I said, ‘You have revealed these marvels to me, your servant, all the way through; you have judged me15worthy to have my prayers answered. Now show me the meaning of this16dream also. How terrible,to my thinking, it will be for all who survive to17those days! But how much worse for those who do not survive! Those who18do not survive will have the sorrow of knowing what is in store in the last19days and yet missing it. Those who do survive are to be pitied for theterrible20dangers and trials which, as these visions show, they will have to face. But perhaps after all it is better to endure the dangers and reach the goal than to vanish out of the world like a cloud and never see the events of the last days.’ 21‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘I will explain the meaning of this vision, and tell you22all that you ask. As for your question about those who survive, this is the23answer: the very person from whom the danger will then come will protect in danger those who have works and fidelity laid up to their credit with the24Most High. You may be assured that those who survive are more highly blessed than those who die.25‘This is what the vision means: The man you saw rising from thedepths26of the sea is he whom the Most High has held in readiness through many ages;he will himself deliver the world he has made, and determine the lot27of those who survive. As for the breath, fire, and storm which you saw28pouring from the mouth of the man, so that without a spear or any weapon in his hand he destroyed the hordes advancing to wage war against him,29this is the meaning: The day is near when the Most High will begin to30bring deliverance to those on earth. Then men will all be filled with great31 alarm; they will plot to make war on one another, city on city, region on32region, nation on nation, kingdom on kingdom. When this happens, and all the signs that I have shown you come to pass, then my son will be33revealed, whom you saw as a man rising from the sea. On hearing his voice, all the nations will leave their own territories and their separate wars, and unite in a countless host, as you saw in your vision, with a common intent35togo and wage war against him. He will take his stand on the summit of 36Mount Zion, and Zion will come into sight before all men, complete and fully built. This corresponds to the mountain which you saw hewn out,37not by the hand of man. Then my son will convict of their godless deeds the nations that confront him. This will correspond to the storm you saw.38He will taunt them with their evil plots and the tortures they are soon to endure.This corresponds to the flame. And he will destroy them without effort by means off the law--- and that is like the fire.39, 40Then you saw him collecting a different company, a peaceful one. They are the ten tribes which were taken off into exile in the time of King Hoshea, whom Shalmaneser king of Assyria took prisoner. He deported them41beyond the River, and they were taken away into a strange country. But then they resolved to leave the country populated by the Gentiles and go42to a distant land never yet inhabited by man,and there at last to be obedient43to their laws, which in their own country they had failed to keep. As they44passed through the narrow passages of the Euphrates, the Most High performed miracles for them, stopping up the channels of the river until they45hadcrossed over. Their journey through that region, which is called46Arzareth, was long, and took a year and a half. They have lived there ever47since, until this final age. Now they are on their way back, and once more the Most High will stop the channels of the river to let them cross.48‘That is the meaning of the peaceful assembly that you saw. With them too are the survivors of your own people, all who are found inside my sacred49boundary. So then, when the time comes for him to destroy the nations50assembled against him, he will protect his people who are left, and show them many prodigies.’ 51‘My lord, my master,’ I asked, ‘explain to me why the man that I saw52rose up out of the depths of the sea.’ He replied: ‘It is beyond the power of any man to explore the deep sea and discover what is in it; in the same way no one on earth can see my son and his company until the appointed day.53Such then is the meaning of your vision. The revelation has been given to54you, and to you alone, because you have given up your own affairs, and55devoted yourself entirely to mine, and to the study of my law. You have taken wisdom as your guide in everything, and called understanding your56mother. That is why I have given this revelation to you; there is a reward in store for you with the Most High. In three days’ time I will speak with you again, and tell you some momentous and wonderful things.’ 57So I went away to the field, giving worship and praise to the Most High58for the wonders he performed from time to time and for his providential control of the passing ages and what happens in them. There I remained for three days.

06-25-2013, 06:50 PM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	4 Ezra 13 describes a scene in which the recipient of a vision sees something like a man brought up from the depths of the sea and flying on the clouds of heaven. Here, and in the surrounding passages, it is evident that the author of 4 Ezra is drawing from and expanding upon the son of man imagery from Daniel 7. In 4 Ezra 12:11, an angel tells Ezra that The eagle you observed coming up out of the sea is the fourth kingdom that appeared in a vision to Daniel your brother. But it was not interpreted to him the same way that I now interpret it to you.” Given the fact that this explicit reference to Daniel immediately precedes the coming of a figure with the resemblance of a man (Dan 7:13; 4 Ezra 1-12), as well as the mention of the clouds of heaven (Dan 7:13; 4 Ezra 13:3) and the sea being stirred by the wind (Dan 7:2; 4 Ezra 13:1), it is probable that 4 Ezra is basing his vision off of Daniel 7 with a new interpretation. Like Daniel and the Similitudes, the one resembling a man in 4 Ezra shares many similarities with God. He comes riding on the clouds (4 Ezra 13:3), which, as noted above, is a motif used for God in the OT. He bums his enemies with the fire from his mouth (Ps 18:8//2 Sam 22:9), and the wicked melt before him (Ps 68:2). Furthermore, similar to Dan 2:34, 44, the man from the sea carves out a mountain with his hands (4 Ezra 13:6). The author of 4 Ezra expands the messianic nature of the one resembling a man. The human-like figure in 4 Ezra 13 is also portrayed as a warrior and judge. The messianic figure takes his stand on Mt. Zion, gathers the righteous, and makes war against the wicked with his fiery breath. This is reminiscent of OT passages that were understood within a messianic framework such as Psalm 2 and Isaiah 11. As Collins notes, 4 Ezra contains a stronger hope for a Davidic messiah. In 4 Ezra 7:28-29, the messiah is referred to by God as 'my servant/son.' [Chad T. Pierce, Spirits and the Proclamation of Christ: 1 Peter 3:18-22 in Light of ... Page 83]

06-25-2013, 06:59 PM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It is almost universally acknowledged that, as noted above, 4 Ezra was composed in Hebrew. However, no traces of a Hebrew text remain. Furthermore, since practically no direct evidence survives of any language version that was translated directly from the Hebrew, the 'original' Hebrew form of 4 Ezra remains, essentially, an unknown factor. 4 Ezra seems to have been translated from Hebrew into Greek at some time before 190 ce, when Clement of Alexandria first quotes the text in Greek. The only direct evidence for a Greek text is three citations that survive in Christian sources. Clement, in Stromateis 3.16.100, 3, apparently written between 190 and 200, quotes 4 Ezra 5:35. (Clement also appears to allude to 4 Ezra 14:18-22 in Stromateis 1.22.149, 3.) The Apostolic Constitutions, the present form of which apparently comes from 4th century Syria, cite 4 Ezra 7:103 (Apost. Constit. 2.14, 9) and 8:23 (Apost. Constit. 8.7, 6). The form of attribution in Clement's citation is noteworthy: the quote is followed by the phrase 'Ezra the prophet says' ... Although the expression 'Ezra the prophet' is sometimes taken to represent Clement's idea of the title of 4 Ezra, this is uncertain. Clearly, however, Clement views the book and its prophecy as authoritative. Both of the quotations in the Apostolic Constitutions are unattributed. [James C. VanDerKam, William Adler Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity p. 103]

06-25-2013, 07:14 PM	#9
Bingo the Clown-O Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: middle east Posts: 310	Is Theiseen even aware of the allegations made by Michael Heiser, Mark S. Smith, et al. that Daniel 7 is barrowing imagery from Ugaritic mythology? I would expect him (or anyone interested in this subject) to at least mention it. Here’s an example from Heiser: The Baal Cycle as Backdrop to Daniel 7: A Paradigm for Jewish Binitarianism and the New Testament’s High Christology

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