Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 06-18-2013, 10:18 AM

What languages were spoken by Christians around the med in the first five hundred years and where?

Might we be able to trace back theological discussions to translation and interpretation issues?

Toto · 06-18-2013, 10:30 AM

An interesting question. Our earliest Christian documents are all written in Koine Greek, although some claim to see evidence that the authors spoke Aramaic. By the fourth century, Latin was in use, at least in the Western churches.

But the theological disputes seem to involve people who spoke and/or wrote in the same language.

andrewcriddle · 06-18-2013, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What languages were spoken by Christians around the med in the first five hundred years and where?

Might we be able to trace back theological discussions to translation and interpretation issues?

Greek Latin Coptic and Syriac are the main ones. There were various others such as Gothic.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 06-18-2013, 01:07 PM

We know there were various churches around, Alexandria and Rome for example.

Was Alexandrian Greek the same as the Greek in Athens? Dialects are different in Britain over 50 miles, the written language might be similar, but spoken?

Seneca spoke Latin and Greek, and lived for a while in Alexandria.

How would different people, with different cultures, possibly speaking for example Greek as a third or fourth language, actually share quite vague concepts with each other?

Clivedurdle · 06-18-2013, 01:20 PM

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.UcDANBbVDq8

This article from New Scientist mentions the research tools now available to look at languages in the distant past - 15,000 years. Maybe these techniques should be used on existing collections of texts?

Quote:

We are more connected than you think. Seven families of languages across the Eurasian continent, containing tongues as diverse as modern Inuit, Tamil, Japanese, Greek and Hungarian, evolved from a single language that existed around the time of the last ice age. That's the conclusion of research that has traced linguistics thousands of years deeper into the past than was previously thought possible.

Cheerful Charlie · 06-18-2013, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What languages were spoken by Christians around the med in the first five hundred years and where?

Might we be able to trace back theological discussions to translation and interpretation issues?

Off the top of my head, the bad translations of the Septuagint And thus problems with Vulgate. Loss of knowledge of Greek. Augustine for example knew little Greek. Lack of knowledge about Koine Greek. By the late 1700's there was a theory that Koine Greek was a special theological form of Greek. Finds of manuscripts in Egypt showed that idea was nonsense and helped elucidate some parts of the NT, resulting in new updated bible translations of the early 20th century. Early loss of understanding of Aramaic.

Cheerful Charlie

aa5874 · 06-18-2013, 05:51 PM

If we examine the Jesus story it is claimed that the resurrected Jesus commissioned his disciples to preach the Gospel to EVERY creature in ALL the world.

See the long version of gMark.

[u]Mark 16.15

Quote:

Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature

So whether or not there were Christians, the disciples would have to know or preach in all languages of the ancient world.

But, that was not a problem.

In the Bible, in Acts of the Apostles, the Promised Holy Ghost came down from heaven and gave the disciples the ability to speak in any Language.

Acts 2

Quote:

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together , and were confounded , because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled , saying one to another , Behold , are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born ? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome , Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12And they were all amazed , and were in doubt , saying one to another, What meaneth this?

The author of Acts solved the languange barrier problem by introducing a Holy Ghost into his story.

Cheerful Charlie · 06-18-2013, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

An interesting question. Our earliest Christian documents are all written in Koine Greek, although some claim to see evidence that the authors spoke Aramaic. By the fourth century, Latin was in use, at least in the Western churches.

But the theological disputes seem to involve people who spoke and/or wrote in the same language.

There were divergent theological traditions, Greek Orthodox, vs Western Latin Christianity. Latin vs Greek.

Cheerful Charlie

Lugubert · 06-18-2013, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.UcDANBbVDq8

This article from New Scientist mentions the research tools now available to look at languages in the distant past - 15,000 years. Maybe these techniques should be used on existing collections of texts?

Quote:

We are more connected than you think. Seven families of languages across the Eurasian continent, containing tongues as diverse as modern Inuit, Tamil, Japanese, Greek and Hungarian, evolved from a single language that existed around the time of the last ice age. That's the conclusion of research that has traced linguistics thousands of years deeper into the past than was previously thought possible.

The New Scientist article refers to efforts of non-linguists to revive a not yet proven theory that is more than 100 years old. The "research" mentioned is fairly thoroughly demolished by real linguists. For example, Professor Sally Thomason in this post concludes,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomason

even if there are no statistical flaws, the Pagel et al. paper is yet another sad example of major scientific publications accepting and publishing articles on historical linguistics without bothering to ask any competent historical linguists to review the papers in advance.

So, expect no help from the Pagel methods.

06-18-2013, 10:18 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Languages What languages were spoken by Christians around the med in the first five hundred years and where? Might we be able to trace back theological discussions to translation and interpretation issues?

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06-18-2013, 10:30 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	An interesting question. Our earliest Christian documents are all written in Koine Greek, although some claim to see evidence that the authors spoke Aramaic. By the fourth century, Latin was in use, at least in the Western churches. But the theological disputes seem to involve people who spoke and/or wrote in the same language.

06-18-2013, 01:07 PM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	We know there were various churches around, Alexandria and Rome for example. Was Alexandrian Greek the same as the Greek in Athens? Dialects are different in Britain over 50 miles, the written language might be similar, but spoken? Seneca spoke Latin and Greek, and lived for a while in Alexandria. How would different people, with different cultures, possibly speaking for example Greek as a third or fourth language, actually share quite vague concepts with each other?

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