Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 06-21-2013, 12:47 PM

Origen makes the puzzling claim that Josephus claims that the fall of Jerusalem occurred as a consequence of the killing of James the brother of Jesus called Christ. This is not found in our current texts of Josephus ( which refer to the killing of James the brother of Jesus called Christ but do not claim that this killing brought about the fall of Jerusalem) and it is most unlikely that such a claim was in the original of Josephus but has been lost.

Several scholars have suggested that Origen is confusing Josephus with the account of the death of James found in Hegesippus and quoted by Eusebius. (Some of these scholars regard our present texts of Josephus on James as authentic some do not.)

One problem with this is that Hegesippus according to Eusebius does not claim that the death of James caused the fall of Jerusalem, and as a Christian writer this would be a surprising claim for him to make. (Hegesippus does claim that the siege of Jerusalem began shortly afterwards but this is a very different type of claim.)

Hence if Origen is using Hegesippus he is reinterpreting him. This makes it doubtful whether introducing Hegesippus has much real advantage over the idea that Origen is heavily reinterpreting Josephus who clearly does link the fall of Jerusalem to crimes committed by the Jewish people during the reign of Nero. Crimes of which the killing of James is one.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 06-21-2013, 03:00 PM

Might docetic Christians have passed over Jesus's mistreatment in favor of his second in command?

DCHindley · 06-21-2013, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Origen makes the puzzling claim that Josephus claims that the fall of Jerusalem occurred as a consequence of the killing of James the brother of Jesus called Christ.

... Hegesippus according to Eusebius does not claim that the death of James caused the fall of Jerusalem, and as a Christian writer this would be a surprising claim for him to make. (Hegesippus does claim that the siege of Jerusalem began shortly afterwards but this is a very different type of claim.)

By linking the siege of Jerusalem with the death of James, isn't that as good as saying that James' death was the cause of the destruction of the city? How is this functionally different?

Quote:

Hence if Origen is using Hegesippus he is reinterpreting him. This makes it doubtful whether introducing Hegesippus has much real advantage over the idea that Origen is heavily reinterpreting Josephus who clearly does link the fall of Jerusalem to crimes committed by the Jewish people during the reign of Nero. Crimes of which the killing of James is one.

Could you be a little more specific, Andrew? I do not remember Josephus linking the fall of Jerusalem with Jewish crimes in the times of Nero. Do you mean the murder of the high priests Ananus and Jesus by the Zealots in War book 4, and the denial of burial by throwing their dead bodies over the battlements of the Temple? Coincidentally, Josephus DOES make the claim that this event was the cause of the destruction of the city.

Any solution to the problem of how the murder of the chief priests Ananus and Jesus being the catalyst that forebode destruction got turned into the murder of James the brother of Jesus, must explain a couple of odd passages.

In Josephus the middle term between this James the brother of Jesus and one of the two murdered Chief Priests is the fact that it was Ananus who ordered the execution of James the Brother of Jesus.

Origen, however, states his conviction that Josephus should have said the destruction was the result of the conspiracy against Jesus. I can see this as an echo of the account in War 4 where the Idumeans are let into the city and conspire with the Zealots to hunt down all the high priests from the old order.

Against Celsus 1.47: But he himself, though not believing in Jesus as Christ, in seeking the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these things happening to the people, since they killed the prophecied Christ, even says, being unwillingly not far from the truth, that these things befell the Jews as vengeance for James the just, who was a brother of Jesus who is called Christ, since they killed him who was most just.

In this case the chief priest Jesus of the story in War 4 transforms into Jesus the prophesied Christ.

aa5874 · 06-21-2013, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Origen makes the puzzling claim that Josephus claims that the fall of Jerusalem occurred as a consequence of the killing of James the brother of Jesus called Christ. This is not found in our current texts of Josephus ( which refer to the killing of James the brother of Jesus called Christ but do not claim that this killing brought about the fall of Jerusalem) and it is most unlikely that such a claim was in the original of Josephus but has been lost.

Several scholars have suggested that Origen is confusing Josephus with the account of the death of James found in Hegesippus and quoted by Eusebius. (Some of these scholars regard our present texts of Josephus on James as authentic some do not.)

One problem with this is that Hegesippus according to Eusebius does not claim that the death of James caused the fall of Jerusalem, and as a Christian writer this would be a surprising claim for him to make. (Hegesippus does claim that the siege of Jerusalem began shortly afterwards but this is a very different type of claim.)

Hence if Origen is using Hegesippus he is reinterpreting him. This makes it doubtful whether introducing Hegesippus has much real advantage over the idea that Origen is heavily reinterpreting Josephus who clearly does link the fall of Jerusalem to crimes committed by the Jewish people during the reign of Nero. Crimes of which the killing of James is one.

Andrew Criddle

You are merely repeating the same DEBUNKED arguments.

Please, read "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4.

Josephus did state exactly why he believed the Temple and the Holy City was taken. It was PREDICTED in Jewish Sacred Oracles.

The Reason for the Fall of the Temple and the Holy City.

Wars of the Jews 6.5.4

Quote:

Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square."

Origen INVENTED his claims about James the brother of Jesus in Josephus.

Origen appears to have forgotten that Josephus told us why the Temple and the Holy City fell about 20 years earlier in "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4.

andrewcriddle · 06-22-2013, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Origen makes the puzzling claim that Josephus claims that the fall of Jerusalem occurred as a consequence of the killing of James the brother of Jesus called Christ.

... Hegesippus according to Eusebius does not claim that the death of James caused the fall of Jerusalem, and as a Christian writer this would be a surprising claim for him to make. (Hegesippus does claim that the siege of Jerusalem began shortly afterwards but this is a very different type of claim.)

By linking the siege of Jerusalem with the death of James, isn't that as good as saying that James' death was the cause of the destruction of the city? How is this functionally different?

This is a form of the fallacious Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc argument e.g.

Quote:

More and more young people are attending high schools and colleges today than ever before. Yet there is more juvenile delinquency and more alienation among the young. This makes it clear that these young people are being corrupted by their education.

The claim that James was killed shortly before the siege of Jerusalem might be simply and objectively true. The claim that the death of James caused the fall of Jerusalem is a matter of interpretation of events not a simple record of events.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Quote:

Hence if Origen is using Hegesippus he is reinterpreting him. This makes it doubtful whether introducing Hegesippus has much real advantage over the idea that Origen is heavily reinterpreting Josephus who clearly does link the fall of Jerusalem to crimes committed by the Jewish people during the reign of Nero. Crimes of which the killing of James is one.

Could you be a little more specific, Andrew? I do not remember Josephus linking the fall of Jerusalem with Jewish crimes in the times of Nero. Do you mean the murder of the high priests Ananus and Jesus by the Zealots in War book 4, and the denial of burial by throwing their dead bodies over the battlements of the Temple? Coincidentally, Josephus DOES make the claim that this event was the cause of the destruction of the city.

From Antiquities book 20

Quote:

Now as for the affairs of the Jews, they grew worse and worse continually, for the country was again filled with robbers and impostors, who deluded the multitude. Yet did Felix catch and put to death many of those impostors every day, together with the robbers. He also caught Eleazar, the son of Dineas, who had gotten together a company of robbers; and this he did by treachery; for he gave him assurance that he should suffer no harm, and thereby persuaded him to come to him; but when he came, he bound him, and sent him to Rome. Felix also bore an ill-will to Jonathan, the high priest, because he frequently gave him admonitions about governing the Jewish affairs better than he did, lest he should himself have complaints made of him by the multitude, since he it was who had desired Caesar to send him as procurator of Judea. So Felix contrived a method whereby he might get rid of him, now he was become so continually troublesome to him; for such continual admonitions are grievous to those who are disposed to act unjustly. Wherefore Felix persuaded one of Jonathan's most faithful friends, a citizen of Jerusalem, whose name was Doras, to bring the robbers upon Jonathan, in order to kill him; and this he did by promising to give him a great deal of money for so doing. Doras complied with the proposal, and contrived matters so, that the robbers might murder him after the following manner: Certain of those robbers went up to the city, as if they were going to worship God, while they had daggers under their garments, and by thus mingling themselves among the multitude they slew Jonathan and as this murder was never avenged, the robbers went up with the greatest security at the festivals after this time; and having weapons concealed in like manner as before, and mingling themselves among the multitude, they slew certain of their own enemies, and were subservient to other men for money; and slew others, not only in remote parts of the city, but in the temple itself also; for they had the boldness to murder men there, without thinking of the impiety of which they were guilty. And this seems to me to have been the reason why God, out of his hatred of these men's wickedness, rejected our city; and as for the temple, he no longer esteemed it sufficiently pure for him to inhabit therein, but brought the Romans upon us, and threw a fire upon the city to purge it; and brought upon us, our wives, and children, slavery, as desirous to make us wiser by our calamities.

Quote:

Now as many of the Levites, which is a tribe of ours, as were singers of hymns, persuaded the king to assemble a sanhedrim, and to give them leave to wear linen garments, as well as the priests for they said that this would be a work worthy the times of his government, that he might have a memorial of such a novelty, as being his doing. Nor did they fail of obtaining their desire; for the king, with the suffrages of those that came into the sanhedrim, granted the singers of hymns this privilege, that they might lay aside their former garments, and wear such a linen one as they desired; and as a part of this tribe ministered in the temple, he also permitted them to learn those hymns as they had besought him for. Now all this was contrary to the laws of our country, which, whenever they have been transgressed, we have never been able to avoid the punishment of such transgressions.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 06-22-2013, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You are merely repeating the same DEBUNKED arguments.

Please, read "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4.

Josephus did state exactly why he believed the Temple and the Holy City was taken. It was PREDICTED in Jewish Sacred Oracles.

The Reason for the Fall of the Temple and the Holy City.

Wars of the Jews 6.5.4

Quote:

Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square."

Origen INVENTED his claims about James the brother of Jesus in Josephus.

Origen appears to have forgotten that Josephus told us why the Temple and the Holy City fell about 20 years earlier in "Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4.

Josephus gives more than one explanation for the fall of the temple. I was referring to the explanation(s) given in Antiquities not in Jewish War

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 06-22-2013, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Might docetic Christians have passed over Jesus's mistreatment in favor of his second in command?

Did docetic Christians believe that James was the brother of Jesus ?

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley · 06-22-2013, 10:04 AM

Perhaps I was put off by your use of the term "crimes," which is not in the text of Josephus. Josephus speaks of them as impieties (killing a HP, murder in the Temple itself) or transgressions against the "laws of our fathers". I think using the term "crimes" is a little too much*.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrewcriddle

... Josephus ... clearly does link the fall of Jerusalem to crimes committed by the Jewish people during the reign of Nero. Crimes of which the killing of James is one.

Quote:

... Wherefore Felix persuaded one of [the High Priest] Jonathan's most faithful friends, a citizen of Jerusalem, whose name was Doras, to bring the robbers [who were secretly with collusion with Felix] upon Jonathan, in order to kill him; and this he did by promising to give him a great deal of money for so doing. Doras complied with the proposal, and contrived matters so, that the robbers might murder him after the following manner: Certain of those robbers went up to the city, as if they were going to worship God, while they had daggers under their garments, and by thus mingling themselves among the multitude they slew Jonathan and as this murder was never avenged, the robbers went up with the greatest security at the festivals after this time; and having weapons concealed in like manner as before, and mingling themselves among the multitude, they slew certain of their own enemies, and were subservient to other men for money; and slew others, not only in remote parts of the city, but in the temple itself also; for they had the boldness to murder men there, without thinking of the impiety [ἀσεβεῖν, "impious acts"] of which they were guilty. And this seems to me to have been the reason why God, out of his hatred of these men's wickedness [ἀσέβειαν], rejected our city; and as for the temple, he no longer esteemed it sufficiently pure for him to inhabit therein, but brought the Romans upon us, and threw a fire upon the city to purge it; and brought upon us, our wives, and children, slavery, as desirous to make us wiser by our calamities. [Ant 20.8.5 (163, 165-166)]

Quote:

Now as many of the Levites, which is a tribe of ours, as were singers of hymns, persuaded the king to assemble a sanhedrim, and to give them leave to wear linen garments, ... he also permitted them to learn those hymns as they had besought him for. Now all this was contrary to the laws of our country [ἐναντία ταῦτα τοῖς πατρίοις νόμοις, "laws of our fathers"], which, whenever they have been transgressed [παραβαθέντων], we have never been able to avoid the punishment of such transgressions [this is inserted by the translator for emphasis]. [Ant 20.9.6 (216-218)]

*Kirsopp Lake did something similar in his Loeb translation of Eusebius' Church History at 1.9.4:

(Bibleworks digitized Greek text)

ἐπὶ τῆς τετάρτης δ᾽ οὖν ὑπατείας Τιβερίου,

ἣ γέγονεν ἔτους ἑβδόμου τῆς βασιλείας αὐτοῦ,

τὰ περὶ τὸ σωτήριον πάθος αὐτοῖς τολμηθέντα περιέχει

(Kirsopp Lake's Loeb translation)

They relate that the crime [this word is not in or implied by the Greek text above] of the Saviour's death
fell in the fourth consulship of Tiberius,
which was the seventh year of his reign

(Post Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Volume 1)

For the things which they have dared to say concerning the passion of the Saviour [this is much closer to the Greek text in my opinion]
are put into the fourth consulship of Tiberius,
which occurred in the seventh year of his reign

;

aa5874 · 06-23-2013, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Josephus gives more than one explanation for the fall of the temple. I was referring to the explanation(s) given in Antiquities not in Jewish War

Andrew Criddle

What you say does not negate the fact that in an earlier writing, Wars of the Jews 6.5.4, that Josephus claimed it was PREDICTED the Temple and the Holy City would be taken when it was made four-square.

This revelation may mean Antiquities of the Jews may have been manipulated.

In any event, James in Antiquities of the Jews 20 is not claimed to be an apostle, a Christian, or related to the Jesus story.

What you have also exposed is that Origen's claims about the reason for Fall of the Temple is nowhere in Josephus writings.

06-21-2013, 12:47 PM	#1
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	Origen Josephus James and Hegesippus Origen makes the puzzling claim that Josephus claims that the fall of Jerusalem occurred as a consequence of the killing of James the brother of Jesus called Christ. This is not found in our current texts of Josephus ( which refer to the killing of James the brother of Jesus called Christ but do not claim that this killing brought about the fall of Jerusalem) and it is most unlikely that such a claim was in the original of Josephus but has been lost. Several scholars have suggested that Origen is confusing Josephus with the account of the death of James found in Hegesippus and quoted by Eusebius. (Some of these scholars regard our present texts of Josephus on James as authentic some do not.) One problem with this is that Hegesippus according to Eusebius does not claim that the death of James caused the fall of Jerusalem, and as a Christian writer this would be a surprising claim for him to make. (Hegesippus does claim that the siege of Jerusalem began shortly afterwards but this is a very different type of claim.) Hence if Origen is using Hegesippus he is reinterpreting him. This makes it doubtful whether introducing Hegesippus has much real advantage over the idea that Origen is heavily reinterpreting Josephus who clearly does link the fall of Jerusalem to crimes committed by the Jewish people during the reign of Nero. Crimes of which the killing of James is one. Andrew Criddle

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06-21-2013, 03:00 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Might docetic Christians have passed over Jesus's mistreatment in favor of his second in command?

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