Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 06-21-2013, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Jumping in with my own observations

Joe had just cited a table on Vridar's web page in support of the idea that Justin Martyr may have been aware of the Gospel of Peter rather than the Gospel of Mark. In the process he cites from Vridar's site one topic line in a table that identified four story elements that passages in the works of Justin (DT 32, 85, 104 & FA13) had in common with passages in the first 7 chapters of the Gospel of Peter:

1) Herod responsible for crucifixion,
2) Jesus pierced by Jews,
3) Jews are the synagogue of wicked, and
4) crucifixion was under Pilate.

Aa was correct to note that Justin's Dialogue with Trypho chapters 32, 85 & 104, and 1st Apology chapter 13, do not say anything at all about Herod Antipas' involvement in the determination of Jesus' fate.

The table below shows that instead of proving a substantial agreement on these four matters between Justin's Apology/Dialogue and the surviving fragments of the Gospel of Peter, Vridar seems to have conflated what the two sources said into a single set of assertions about Herod's responsibility for Jesus' crucifixion, about Jesus' trial, his humiliations and ultimate execution. In reality, of these four elements, only the crucifixion under Pilate is held in common.

If JW assumed the correctness of Vridar's overstated parallels as fact without checking them out himself, then aa's criticism is justified. Aa, for his part, had clearly done his/her homework.

	JD	GoP

Herod responsible for crucifixion.	Not Found	Chap 1(1-2)
pierced by Jews	DT Ch 32	Not found
synagogue of the wicked	DT Ch 104	Not found
Crucified under Pilate	DT Ch 85; FA Ch 13	Ch 4(10), Ch 12(52), Ch 13(56)

DCH

JW:
Ahh, what a dilemma. Who to believe, major Skeptical Internet author Neil Godfree (NG) or MAJOR SKEPTICAL author of conclusions, red, repetition and CAPS, aa? Tough choice. TOUGH CHOICE.

As Otter said in the classic Trial of the Century (not the OJ Simpson trial), "The issue is not whether we took a few liberties with our female party guests, we did (wink)." So too the primary issue here is whether The Gospel of Peter (GOP) was a source for Justin, not whether "HEROD" is explicitly stated in specific references to Justin Martyr (JM).

For anyone who has looked at this much (apparently unlike aa or Dave Hindley(DuH)) it's clear that Literary Criticism (LC) provides evidence that JM used
GOP. The evidence goes well beyond the obvious narrative parallels pointed out by NG to language usage as evidenced here:

The Gospel According to Peter: A Study

It's generally accepted that not only is there good LC evidence that JM used GOP but that GOP is the best known source candidate for some of JM. The more interesting question is whether JM's use of "Peter" refers to GOP. Of course the competitors for GOP here are an unknown source and Justin's imagination. How much of the parallels could just be Justin's own interpretation? So just how good are the parallels between JM and GOP?

First, some LC background. In the original narrative "Mark", Herod is actually a sympathetic character:

Mark 6

Quote:

14 And king Herod heard [thereof]; for his name had become known: and he said, John the Baptizer is risen from the dead, and therefore do these powers work in him.

15 But others said, It is Elijah. And others said, [It is] a prophet, [even] as one of the prophets.

16 But Herod, when he heard [thereof], said, John, whom I beheaded, he is risen.

17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip`s wife; for he had married her.

18 For John said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother`s wife.

19 And Herodias set herself against him, and desired to kill him; and she could not;

20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was much perplexed; and he heard him gladly.

JW:
The point of the story is that Herod believed in resurrection. This contrasts with "Mark's" Jesus' disciples who did not. Herod has nothing to do with Jesus' Passion in the original narrative and this is so clear that it holds for the other Canonical Gospels. What is primarily distinctive of extant GOP is that Herod and "The Jews" are primarily responsible for ALL of Jesus' Passion.

Now for the parallels indicating that JM's likely source for his opinion that Herod and "The Jews" were primarily responsible for Jesus' Passion.
[DH read closely] And I want DH to read this very closely [/DH read closely]. If JM has explicitly identified Herod with "The Jews" somewhere, than there is always a potential implication that he is there somewhere else even if he is not explicitly identified.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xxxv.html

Quote:

Jesus Christ stretched forth His hands, being crucified by the Jews speaking against Him, and denying that He was the Christ. And as the prophet spoke, they tormented Him, and set Him on the judgment-seat, and said, Judge us. And the expression, “They pierced my hands and my feet,” was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they 175 that crucified Him parted it among them.

This fits GOP. What else would it fit?

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0....ii.xxxvi.html

Quote:

And this the Jews who possessed the books of the prophets did not understand, and therefore did not recognise Christ even when He came, but even hate us who say that He has come, and who prove that, as was predicted, He was crucified by them

.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0...i.xxxviii.html

Quote:

And that all these things happened to Christ at the hands of the Jews, you can ascertain. For when He was crucified, they did shoot out the lip, and wagged their heads, saying, “Let Him who raised the dead save Himself.”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xl.html

Quote:

He foretold the conspiracy which was formed against Christ by Herod the king of the Jews, and the Jews themselves, and Pilate, who was your governor among them, with his soldiers

Quote:

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against His Anointed

So there's the explicit "Herod" who is also explicitly King of "The Jews". Now we have the (strong) implication that whenever "The Jews" is invoked, it includes Herod.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xlix.html

Quote:

For the Jews having the prophecies, and being always in expectation of the Christ to come, did not recognise Him; and not only so, but even treated Him shamefully. But the Gentiles, who had never heard anything about Christ, until the apostles set out from Jerusalem and preached concerning Him, and gave them the prophecies, were filled with joy and faith

This is just The First Apology but as my famous ancestor Caiphus, famously said, "What more evidence do we need?" (that GOP was the source for JM's assertian that Herod and "The Jews" were responsible for all of the Passion). So I will say to aa one more time, Confess! (that GOP was a likely source for JM) or I will be forced to bring on The Comfy Chair!

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

JoeWallack · 06-26-2013, 08:09 AM

JW:
Next up, Bart Ehrman:

More on Mark and Peter (For members) [you have to subscribe but it is well worth the Price. His ancient historian skills have room for improvement but he is The Master of Textual Criticism]

Quote:

there is in fact nothing in Mark’s Gospel to make anyone think that it is Peter’s version

...

this Gospel was almost certainly not written by (or based on reminiscences by) a Jew

...

Mark could not have transposed Peter’s reminiscences into Greek and written this Gospel in Greek because Mark could almost certainly not write, and even more certainly could not write in Greek

Conclusion please:

Quote:

What we know about Mark’s Gospel and what we know about John Mark suggest that these legends are not historically accurate. The short of it is that we don’t know who wrote this Gospel, except to say that he was a gentile (non-Jewish) Christian living *outside* of Palestine who was highly educated in Greek.

Quite a difference from Wallace's conclusion:

Quote:

In conclusion, there is no reason to doubt that John Mark, companion of both Peter and Paul, wrote the gospel which bears the name Mark. The MSS and patristic testimony are unanimous, and the internal evidence certainly corroborates this, even if only in subtle ways. When we examine the issue of date, we will look more carefully at some of the evidence, but for now Markan authorship, at least, is assumed.

Wallace's credibility continues to plunge faster than a pregnant Kardashian's neckline now that his initial boast of solid evidence for a 1st century fragment of a copy of the Gospel of "Mark" has turned all the Way into a vow of silence. I demand the High Cohen of Silence!

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

aa5874 · 06-26-2013, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Jumping in with my own observations

Joe had just cited a table on Vridar's web page in support of the idea that Justin Martyr may have been aware of the Gospel of Peter rather than the Gospel of Mark. In the process he cites from Vridar's site one topic line in a table that identified four story elements that passages in the works of Justin (DT 32, 85, 104 & FA13) had in common with passages in the first 7 chapters of the Gospel of Peter:

1) Herod responsible for crucifixion,
2) Jesus pierced by Jews,
3) Jews are the synagogue of wicked, and
4) crucifixion was under Pilate.

Aa was correct to note that Justin's Dialogue with Trypho chapters 32, 85 & 104, and 1st Apology chapter 13, do not say anything at all about Herod Antipas' involvement in the determination of Jesus' fate.

The table below shows that instead of proving a substantial agreement on these four matters between Justin's Apology/Dialogue and the surviving fragments of the Gospel of Peter, Vridar seems to have conflated what the two sources said into a single set of assertions about Herod's responsibility for Jesus' crucifixion, about Jesus' trial, his humiliations and ultimate execution. In reality, of these four elements, only the crucifixion under Pilate is held in common.

If JW assumed the correctness of Vridar's overstated parallels as fact without checking them out himself, then aa's criticism is justified. Aa, for his part, had clearly done his/her homework.

	JD	GoP

Herod responsible for crucifixion.	Not Found	Chap 1(1-2)
pierced by Jews	DT Ch 32	Not found
synagogue of the wicked	DT Ch 104	Not found
Crucified under Pilate	DT Ch 85; FA Ch 13	Ch 4(10), Ch 12(52), Ch 13(56)

DCH

JW:
Ahh, what a dilemma. Who to believe, major Skeptical Internet author Neil Godfree (NG) or MAJOR SKEPTICAL author of conclusions, red, repetition and CAPS, aa? Tough choice. TOUGH CHOICE.

As Otter said in the classic Trial of the Century (not the OJ Simpson trial), "The issue is not whether we took a few liberties with our female party guests, we did (wink)." So too the primary issue here is whether The Gospel of Peter (GOP) was a source for Justin, not whether "HEROD" is explicitly stated in specific references to Justin Martyr (JM).

For anyone who has looked at this much (apparently unlike aa or Dave Hindley(DuH)) it's clear that Literary Criticism (LC) provides evidence that JM used
GOP. The evidence goes well beyond the obvious narrative parallels pointed out by NG to language usage as evidenced here:

The Gospel According to Peter: A Study

It's generally accepted that not only is there good LC evidence that JM used GOP but that GOP is the best known source candidate for some of JM. The more interesting question is whether JM's use of "Peter" refers to GOP. Of course the competitors for GOP here are an unknown source and Justin's imagination. How much of the parallels could just be Justin's own interpretation? So just how good are the parallels between JM and GOP?

First, some LC background. In the original narrative "Mark", Herod is actually a sympathetic character:

Mark 6

Quote:

14 And king Herod heard [thereof]; for his name had become known: and he said, John the Baptizer is risen from the dead, and therefore do these powers work in him.

15 But others said, It is Elijah. And others said, [It is] a prophet, [even] as one of the prophets.

16 But Herod, when he heard [thereof], said, John, whom I beheaded, he is risen.

17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip`s wife; for he had married her.

18 For John said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother`s wife.

19 And Herodias set herself against him, and desired to kill him; and she could not;

20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was much perplexed; and he heard him gladly.

JW:
The point of the story is that Herod believed in resurrection. This contrasts with "Mark's" Jesus' disciples who did not. Herod has nothing to do with Jesus' Passion in the original narrative and this is so clear that it holds for the other Canonical Gospels. What is primarily distinctive of extant GOP is that Herod and "The Jews" are primarily responsible for ALL of Jesus' Passion.

Now for the parallels indicating that JM's likely source for his opinion that Herod and "The Jews" were primarily responsible for Jesus' Passion.
[DH read closely] And I want DH to read this very closely [/DH read closely]. If JM has explicitly identified Herod with "The Jews" somewhere, than there is always a potential implication that he is there somewhere else even if he is not explicitly identified.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xxxv.html

Quote:

Jesus Christ stretched forth His hands, being crucified by the Jews speaking against Him, and denying that He was the Christ. And as the prophet spoke, they tormented Him, and set Him on the judgment-seat, and said, Judge us. And the expression, “They pierced my hands and my feet,” was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they 175 that crucified Him parted it among them.

This fits GOP. What else would it fit?

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0....ii.xxxvi.html

Quote:

And this the Jews who possessed the books of the prophets did not understand, and therefore did not recognise Christ even when He came, but even hate us who say that He has come, and who prove that, as was predicted, He was crucified by them

.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0...i.xxxviii.html

Quote:

And that all these things happened to Christ at the hands of the Jews, you can ascertain. For when He was crucified, they did shoot out the lip, and wagged their heads, saying, “Let Him who raised the dead save Himself.”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xl.html

Quote:

He foretold the conspiracy which was formed against Christ by Herod the king of the Jews, and the Jews themselves, and Pilate, who was your governor among them, with his soldiers

Quote:

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against His Anointed

So there's the explicit "Herod" who is also explicitly King of "The Jews". Now we have the (strong) implication that whenever "The Jews" is invoked, it includes Herod.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.xlix.html

Quote:

For the Jews having the prophecies, and being always in expectation of the Christ to come, did not recognise Him; and not only so, but even treated Him shamefully. But the Gentiles, who had never heard anything about Christ, until the apostles set out from Jerusalem and preached concerning Him, and gave them the prophecies, were filled with joy and faith

This is just The First Apology but as my famous ancestor Caiphus, famously said, "What more evidence do we need?" (that GOP was the source for JM's assertian that Herod and "The Jews" were responsible for all of the Passion). So I will say to aa one more time, Confess! (that GOP was a likely source for JM) or I will be forced to bring on The Comfy Chair!

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Your response has now confirmed that you have no intention of admitting your blatant errors.

You claimed that in Justin's writings that Herod was responsible for the death of Jesus yet produced a story in gMark where Herod [Antipas] admitted to the death of JOHN the BAPTIST.

Now, Justin Martyr did also ADMIT that a King Herod [Antipas] was responsible for the death of JOHN the Baptist.

Dialogue with Trypho XLIX

Quote:

And this very prophet your king Herod had shut up in prison; and when his birthday was celebrated, and the niece of the same Herod by her dancing had pleased him, he told her to ask whatever she pleased.

Then the mother of the maiden instigated her to ask the head of John, who was in prison; and having asked it,[Herod] sent and ordered the head of John to be brought in on a charger. Wherefore also our Christ said,[when He was] on earth, to those who were affirming that Elijah must come before Christ: 'Elijah shall come, and restore all things; but I say unto you, that Elijah has already come, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatsoever they chose.' And it is written, 'Then the disciples understood that He spake to them about John the Baptist.' "

HEROD ANTIPAS was responsible for the death of JOHN the BAPTIST in gMark and the writings of Justin.

Now, what I find extremely disturbing is that you referred to ANOTHER KING HEROD under the pretense that it was Herod Antipas.

In First Apology XL, Justin made references to the ADVENT of Jesus at the time of King Herod who supposedly KILLED the children of Judea in an attempt to Kill Jesus Christ around the time he was born.

In the writings of Justin KING HEROD conspired against the Christ at his BIRTH--NOT at crucifixion.

Dialogue with Trypho

Quote:

....So Herod, when the Magi from Arabia did not return to him, as he had asked them to do, but had departed by another way to their own country, according to the commands laid on them; and when Joseph, with Mary and the Child, had now gone into Egypt, as it was revealed to them to do; as he did not know the Child whom the Magi had gone to worship, ordered simply the whole of the children then in Bethlehem to be massacred...

JoeWallack · 06-26-2013, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In the writings of Justin KING HEROD conspired against the Christ at his BIRTH--NOT at crucifixion.

JW:
Chapter CIII.—The Pharisees are the bulls: the roaring lion is Herod or the devil.

Quote:

“Then what is next said in the Psalm—‘For trouble is near, for there is none to help me. Many calves have compassed me; fat bulls have beset me round. They opened their mouth upon me as a ravening and roaring lion. All my bones are poured out and dispersed like water,’—was likewise a prediction of the events which happened to Him. For on that night when some of your nation, who had been sent by the Pharisees and Scribes, and teachers,2341 came upon Him from the Mount2342 of Olives, those whom Scripture called butting and prematurely destructive calves surrounded Him. And the expression, ‘Fat bulls have beset me round,’ He spoke beforehand of those who acted similarly to the calves, when He was led before your teachers. And the Scripture described them as bulls, since we know that bulls are authors of calves’ existence. As therefore the bulls are the begetters of the calves, so your teachers were the cause why their children went out to the Mount of Olives to take Him and bring Him to them. And the expression, ‘For there is none to help,’ is also indicative of what took place. For there was not even a single man to assist Him as an innocent person. And the expression, ‘They opened their mouth upon me like a roaring lion,’ 251 designates him who was then king of the Jews, and was called Herod, a successor of the Herod who, when Christ was born, slew all the infants in Bethlehem born about the same time, because he imagined that amongst them He would assuredly be of whom the Magi from Arabia had spoken; for he was ignorant of the will of Him that is stronger than all, how He had commanded Joseph and Mary to take the Child and depart into Egypt, and there to remain until a revelation should again be made to them to return into their own country. And there they did remain until Herod, who slew the infants in Bethlehem, was dead, and Archelaus had succeeded him. And he died before Christ came to the dispensation on the cross which was given Him by His Father. And when Herod succeeded Archelaus, having received the authority which had been allotted to him, Pilate sent to him by way of compliment Jesus bound; and God foreknowing that this would happen, had thus spoken: ‘And they brought Him to the Assyrian, a present to the king.’2343 Or He meant the devil by the lion roaring against Him: whom Moses calls the serpent, but in Job and Zechariah he is called the devil, and by Jesus is addressed as Satan, showing that a compounded name was acquired by him from the deeds which he performed. For ‘Sata’ in the Jewish and Syrian tongue means apostate; and ‘Nas’ is the word from which he is called by interpretation the serpent, i.e., according to the interpretation of the Hebrew term, from both of which there arises the single word Satanas. For this devil, when [Jesus] went up from the river Jordan, at the time when the voice spake to Him, ‘Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten Thee,’2344 is recorded in the memoirs of the apostles to have come to Him and tempted Him, even so far as to say to Him, ‘Worship me;’ and Christ answered him, ‘Get thee behind me, Satan: thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.’2345 For as he had deceived Adam, so he hoped2346 that he might contrive some mischief against Christ also. Moreover, the statement, ‘All my bones are poured out2347 and dispersed like water; my heart has become like wax, melting in the midst of my belly,’ was a prediction of that which happened to Him on that night when men came out against Him to the Mount of Olives to seize Him. For in the memoirs which I say were drawn up by His apostles and those who followed them, [it is recorded] that His sweat fell down like drops of blood while He was praying, and saying, ‘If it be possible, let this cup pass:’2348 His heart and also His bones trembling; His heart being like wax melting in His belly:2349 in order that we may perceive that the Father wished His Son really2350 to undergo such sufferings for our sakes, and may not say that He, being the Son of God, did not feel what was happening to Him and inflicted on Him. Further, the expression, ‘My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue has cleaved to my throat,’ was a prediction, as I previously remarked, of that silence, when He who convicted all your teachers of being unwise returned no answer at all.

JW:
I have Faith that DH has now been converted into a Believer. Confess! Or I will be forced to bring out the soft cushions.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

aa5874 · 06-26-2013, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In the writings of Justin KING HEROD conspired against the Christ at his BIRTH--NOT at crucifixion.

JW:
Chapter CIII.—The Pharisees are the bulls: the roaring lion is Herod or the devil.

Quote:

“Then what is next said in the Psalm—‘For trouble is near, for there is none to help me. Many calves have compassed me; fat bulls have beset me round. They opened their mouth upon me as a ravening and roaring lion. All my bones are poured out and dispersed like water,’—was likewise a prediction of the events which happened to Him. For on that night when some of your nation, who had been sent by the Pharisees and Scribes, and teachers,2341 came upon Him from the Mount2342 of Olives, those whom Scripture called butting and prematurely destructive calves surrounded Him. And the expression, ‘Fat bulls have beset me round,’ He spoke beforehand of those who acted similarly to the calves, when He was led before your teachers. And the Scripture described them as bulls, since we know that bulls are authors of calves’ existence. As therefore the bulls are the begetters of the calves, so your teachers were the cause why their children went out to the Mount of Olives to take Him and bring Him to them. And the expression, ‘For there is none to help,’ is also indicative of what took place. For there was not even a single man to assist Him as an innocent person. And the expression, ‘They opened their mouth upon me like a roaring lion,’ 251 designates him who was then king of the Jews, and was called Herod, a successor of the Herod who, when Christ was born, slew all the infants in Bethlehem born about the same time, because he imagined that amongst them He would assuredly be of whom the Magi from Arabia had spoken; for he was ignorant of the will of Him that is stronger than all, how He had commanded Joseph and Mary to take the Child and depart into Egypt, and there to remain until a revelation should again be made to them to return into their own country. And there they did remain until Herod, who slew the infants in Bethlehem, was dead, and Archelaus had succeeded him. And he died before Christ came to the dispensation on the cross which was given Him by His Father. And when Herod succeeded Archelaus, having received the authority which had been allotted to him, Pilate sent to him by way of compliment Jesus bound; and God foreknowing that this would happen, had thus spoken: ‘And they brought Him to the Assyrian, a present to the king.’2343 Or He meant the devil by the lion roaring against Him: whom Moses calls the serpent, but in Job and Zechariah he is called the devil, and by Jesus is addressed as Satan, showing that a compounded name was acquired by him from the deeds which he performed. For ‘Sata’ in the Jewish and Syrian tongue means apostate; and ‘Nas’ is the word from which he is called by interpretation the serpent, i.e., according to the interpretation of the Hebrew term, from both of which there arises the single word Satanas. For this devil, when [Jesus] went up from the river Jordan, at the time when the voice spake to Him, ‘Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten Thee,’2344 is recorded in the memoirs of the apostles to have come to Him and tempted Him, even so far as to say to Him, ‘Worship me;’ and Christ answered him, ‘Get thee behind me, Satan: thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.’2345 For as he had deceived Adam, so he hoped2346 that he might contrive some mischief against Christ also. Moreover, the statement, ‘All my bones are poured out2347 and dispersed like water; my heart has become like wax, melting in the midst of my belly,’ was a prediction of that which happened to Him on that night when men came out against Him to the Mount of Olives to seize Him. For in the memoirs which I say were drawn up by His apostles and those who followed them, [it is recorded] that His sweat fell down like drops of blood while He was praying, and saying, ‘If it be possible, let this cup pass:’2348 His heart and also His bones trembling; His heart being like wax melting in His belly:2349 in order that we may perceive that the Father wished His Son really2350 to undergo such sufferings for our sakes, and may not say that He, being the Son of God, did not feel what was happening to Him and inflicted on Him. Further, the expression, ‘My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue has cleaved to my throat,’ was a prediction, as I previously remarked, of that silence, when He who convicted all your teachers of being unwise returned no answer at all.

JW:
I have Faith that DH has now been converted into a Believer. Confess! Or I will be forced to bring out the soft cushions.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

You seem to have no idea that Justin Martyr mentioned TWO Kings whom he called King Herod.

1. King Herod the Great

2. King Herod the tetrarch.

You seem to have no idea that King Herod [Herod Antipas] was NOT tetrarch of Jerualem where Jesus was supposedly Crucified.

1. King Herod [Herod the Great] was responsible for the killing of the children--NOT the crucifixion of Jesus in the writings of Justin.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho LXXVIII

Quote:

"Now this king Herod, at the time when the Magi came to him from Arabia, and said they knew from a star which appeared in the heavens that a King had been born in your country, and that they had come to worship Him, learned from the elders of your people that it was thus written regarding Bethlehem in the prophet...

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho CII

Quote:

As soon as He was born in Bethlehem, as I previously remarked, king Herod, having learned from the Arabian Magi about Him, made a plot to put Him to death and by God's command Joseph took Him with Mary and departed into Egypt.

2. King Herod [Herod Antipas the tetrarch ] was responsible for the killing of John the Baptist---Not the crucifixion of Jesus in the writings of Justin.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho XLIX

Quote:

And this very prophet your king Herod had shut up in prison; and when his birthday was celebrated, and the niece of the same Herod by her dancing had pleased him, he told her to ask whatever she pleased. Then the mother of the maiden instigated her to ask the head of John, who was in prison; and having asked it,[Herod] sent and ordered the head of John to be brought in on a charger.

3. The Jews were responsible for the Killing of Jesus in the writings of Justin Martyr.[/b]

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho XVI

Quote:

Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him; and now you reject those who hope in Him, and in Him who sent Him--God the Almighty and Maker of all things--cursing in your synagogues those that believe on Christ.

Justin's Dialogue with TryphoXVII

Quote:

"For other nations have not inflicted on us and on Christ this wrong to such an extent as you have, who in very deed are the authors of the wicked prejudice against the Just One, and us who hold by Him. For after that you had crucified Him, the only blameless and righteous Man,-- through whose swipes those who approach the Father by Him are healed,--when you knew that He had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven, as the prophets foretold He would, you not only did not repent of the wickedness

4. Now, Jesus was CRUCIFIED in Jerusalem in the writings of Justin.,

King Herod [Herod Antipas] was NOT tetrarch of the Jerusalem of Judea.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho XL

Quote:

And the two goats which were ordered to be offered during the fast, of which one was sent away as the scape [goat], and the other sacrificed, were similarly declarative of the two appearances of Christ: the first, in which the elders of your people, and the priests, having laid hands on Him and put Him to death, sent Him away as the scope [goat]; and His second appearance, because in the same place in Jerusalem you shall recognise Him whom you have dishonoured, and who was an offering for all sinners willing to repent....

There is no claim whatsoever in the writings of Justin that states King Herod the Great or King Herod tetrarch was responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus in Jerusalem when Pilate was procurator of Judea.

JoeWallack · 06-26-2013, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

“Then what is next said in the Psalm—‘For trouble is near, for there is none to help me. Many calves have compassed me; fat bulls have beset me round. They opened their mouth upon me as a ravening and roaring lion. All my bones are poured out and dispersed like water,’—was likewise a prediction of the events which happened to Him. For on that night when some of your nation, who had been sent by the Pharisees and Scribes, and teachers,2341 came upon Him from the Mount2342 of Olives, those whom Scripture called butting and prematurely destructive calves surrounded Him. And the expression, ‘Fat bulls have beset me round,’ He spoke beforehand of those who acted similarly to the calves, when He was led before your teachers. And the Scripture described them as bulls, since we know that bulls are authors of calves’ existence. As therefore the bulls are the begetters of the calves, so your teachers were the cause why their children went out to the Mount of Olives to take Him and bring Him to them. And the expression, ‘For there is none to help,’ is also indicative of what took place. For there was not even a single man to assist Him as an innocent person. And the expression, ‘They opened their mouth upon me like a roaring lion,’ 251 designates him who was then king of the Jews, and was called Herod, a successor of the Herod who, when Christ was born, slew all the infants in Bethlehem born about the same time, because he imagined that amongst them He would assuredly be of whom the Magi from Arabia had spoken; for he was ignorant of the will of Him that is stronger than all, how He had commanded Joseph and Mary to take the Child and depart into Egypt, and there to remain until a revelation should again be made to them to return into their own country. And there they did remain until Herod, who slew the infants in Bethlehem, was dead, and Archelaus had succeeded him. And he died before Christ came to the dispensation on the cross which was given Him by His Father. And when Herod succeeded Archelaus, having received the authority which had been allotted to him, Pilate sent to him by way of compliment Jesus bound; and God foreknowing that this would happen, had thus spoken: ‘And they brought Him to the Assyrian, a present to the king.’2343 Or He meant the devil by the lion roaring against Him: whom Moses calls the serpent, but in Job and Zechariah he is called the devil, and by Jesus is addressed as Satan, showing that a compounded name was acquired by him from the deeds which he performed. For ‘Sata’ in the Jewish and Syrian tongue means apostate; and ‘Nas’ is the word from which he is called by interpretation the serpent, i.e., according to the interpretation of the Hebrew term, from both of which there arises the single word Satanas. For this devil, when [Jesus] went up from the river Jordan, at the time when the voice spake to Him, ‘Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten Thee,’2344 is recorded in the memoirs of the apostles to have come to Him and tempted Him, even so far as to say to Him, ‘Worship me;’ and Christ answered him, ‘Get thee behind me, Satan: thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.’2345 For as he had deceived Adam, so he hoped2346 that he might contrive some mischief against Christ also. Moreover, the statement, ‘All my bones are poured out2347 and dispersed like water; my heart has become like wax, melting in the midst of my belly,’ was a prediction of that which happened to Him on that night when men came out against Him to the Mount of Olives to seize Him. For in the memoirs which I say were drawn up by His apostles and those who followed them, [it is recorded] that His sweat fell down like drops of blood while He was praying, and saying, ‘If it be possible, let this cup pass:’2348 His heart and also His bones trembling; His heart being like wax melting in His belly:2349 in order that we may perceive that the Father wished His Son really2350 to undergo such sufferings for our sakes, and may not say that He, being the Son of God, did not feel what was happening to Him and inflicted on Him. Further, the expression, ‘My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue has cleaved to my throat,’ was a prediction, as I previously remarked, of that silence, when He who convicted all your teachers of being unwise returned no answer at all.

There is no claim whatsoever in the writings of Justin that states King Herod the Great or King Herod tetrarch was responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus in Jerusalem when Pilate was procurator of Judea.

JW:
The Court convicts you of the crime of never admitting you were wrong in all 18,243 of your posts here at FRDB (at the same time The Court recognizes the accomplishment considering it is an area here with serious competition).

Now onto the sentencing. The extent of punishment should be proportional to motivation for the crime. If this is simply a case of just another Skeptic who refuses to publicly admit they are wrong, because there is less bad intent, the punishment would be lesser, such as being placed on my Ignore list for the length of Jesus' supposed earthly Ministry. Here though, due to the speed of the Defendant's reply, The Court is inclined to think it is something more than that. Therefore, Defendant is sentenced to be on my Ignore list until Jesus' return.

aa, since it will now be impossible for you to appeal directly to me, I suggest you try and obtain an intercessor for you to make atonement for your sin. I recommend Jesus since one of the few things you and I agree upon is that he is currently not doing anything. Congratulations are also in order as you are the first person I have ever put on "Ignore".

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

aa5874 · 06-26-2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There is no claim whatsoever in the writings of Justin that states King Herod the Great or King Herod tetrarch was responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus in Jerusalem when Pilate was procurator of Judea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
The Court convicts you of the crime of never admitting you were wrong in all 18,243 of your posts here at FRDB (at the same time The Court recognizes the accomplishment considering it is an area here with serious competition).

Now onto the sentencing. The extent of punishment should be proportional to motivation for the crime. If this is simply a case of just another Skeptic who refuses to publicly admit they are wrong, because there is less bad intent, the punishment would be lesser, such as being placed on my Ignore list for the length of Jesus' supposed earthly Ministry. Here though, due to the speed of the Defendant's reply, The Court is inclined to think it is something more than that. Therefore, Defendant is sentenced to be on my Ignore list until Jesus' return.

aa, since it will now be impossible for you to appeal directly to me, I suggest you try and obtain an intercessor for you to make atonement for your sin. I recommend Jesus since one of the few things you and I agree upon is that he is currently not doing anything. Congratulations are also in order as you are the first person I have ever put on "Ignore".

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Your response is just totally useless and has no relevance. The evidence from antiquity that I present does not rely on you at all.

I deal with the evidence from antiquity.

I deal with the written statements found in the writings of Justin Martyr.

I have merely exposed your fallacies.

Justin Martyr did NOT claim that King Herod the Great or King Herod the tetrarch were responsible for the Crucifixion of Jesus in Jerusalem in "Dialogue with Trypho" or "First Apology".

It was the JEWS who were responsible for the Crucifixion of Jesus under Pilate according to Justin.

Jesus was TRIED in the presence of and Crucified under PILATE in writings attributed to Justin.

1. Justin’s First Apology XIII

Quote:

…Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who ……….. was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar..

2. Justin’s First Apology XXXV

Quote:

…And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.

3. Justin’s First Apology LXI

Quote:

And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

4. Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho LXXVI

Quote:

And now we, who believe on our Lord Jesus, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, when we exorcise all demons and evil spirits, have them subjected to us.

5.Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho LXXXV

Quote:

For every demon, when exorcised in the name of this very Son of God--who is the First-born of every creature, who became man by the Virgin, who suffered, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate by your nation…

6. Justin's Dialogue with Trypho CII

Quote:

…. He kept silence, and chose to return no answer to any one in the presence of Pilate; as has been declared in the memoirs of His apostles…

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