Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 09-03-2013, 07:41 PM

I think the availability of an English translation of these Acts of St Saturninus deserves its own thread. Thanks Roger for the commissioning.

I look forward to the Introduction. On the archive site you state:

Quote:

translated from Cabau's text. Dated to the 5th century, but the main portion from ca. 300 AD.

It would be good to hear a little about Cabau's text and the manuscript tradition and how the 5th century dating has been established, as well as a c.300 CE date for the main portion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Andrew Eastbourne has kindly translated the Acts of St Saturninus for us.

The result is public domain; use it for any purpose, personal, educational or commercial.

HTML version:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pa...us_02_text.htm

PDF and Word format:

http://archive.org/details/PassionOfSt.Saturninus

I need to write an intro, giving details of why the text is mainly authentic and historical, as too few of the hagiographical texts are. But that will probably be later!

The collection as a whole is here:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers

A CDROM of all the translations I have collected or had made is here:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/al...hers_on_cd.htm

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 09-04-2013, 08:28 AM

Thanks.

I have now written a brief introduction to the HTML version:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pa...s_01_intro.htm

There is discussion of the manuscripts in Cabau (linked from the intro). M is 11th c., M' is 10th c., P is 13th c., G1 is a little before 1317. Normal sorts of dates for Latin texts. There's a long biblio.

Chapter 6 has to date no earlier than Bishop Exuperius; I suspect the argument is that so prolonged a bum-suck to Exuperius must be more or less contemporary (otherwise why bother?).

Nothing in the material available to me explains the dates; one would have to read into the biblio. But apparently 2-5 are in a rather better literary style, suggesting different authors.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

PhilosopherJay · 09-04-2013, 10:03 AM

Hi Roger,

The whole thing seems to be an advertisement for the Baslica at Toulouse. I assume a successor Bishop to St. Exuperius wrote it entirely in the Fifth century.

It probably contains no historical data whatsoever about Saturninus. He is simply a fictional character in a made-up Christian martyr story. The two women burying the cursed body are taken from the Greek tragedy "Antigone."

The dream the author gives to Bishop Exuperius is interesting. He writes ""he was admonished in a dream not to neglect faithlessly what he had believed faithfully." Probably, this is his own dream. It probably reflects his own wishes to confront his superiors with their faithlessness in him.

I would guess that all the people in the area at that time still worshipped different gods and nobody was attending his church and giving money. His superiors were perhaps going to stop sending him funds, so he made up this story about a martyred Bishop being buried there. This way he could keep his job and continue getting money without working.

The author is depressed about the pagan community ignoring him and he wishes like his imaginary Bishop Saturninus that they would torture him, so he could die a martyr's death and be honored after death.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Thanks.

I have now written a brief introduction to the HTML version:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pa...s_01_intro.htm

There is discussion of the manuscripts in Cabau (linked from the intro). M is 11th c., M' is 10th c., P is 13th c., G1 is a little before 1317. Normal sorts of dates for Latin texts. There's a long biblio.

Chapter 6 has to date no earlier than Bishop Exuperius; I suspect the argument is that so prolonged a bum-suck to Exuperius must be more or less contemporary (otherwise why bother?).

Nothing in the material available to me explains the dates; one would have to read into the biblio. But apparently 2-5 are in a rather better literary style, suggesting different authors.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Huon · 09-05-2013, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I think the availability of an English translation of these Acts of St Saturninus deserves its own thread. Thanks Roger for the commissioning.

I look forward to the Introduction. On the archive site you state:

Quote:

translated from Cabau's text. Dated to the 5th century, but the main portion from ca. 300 AD.

It would be good to hear a little about Cabau's text and the manuscript tradition and how the 5th century dating has been established, as well as a c.300 CE date for the main portion.

Here is a link [in french] to Patrice CABAU:

http://www.societes-savantes-toulous...T_59/cabau.htm

Huon · 09-05-2013, 12:03 PM

Here is the beginning of the text by Patrice CABAU:

Quote:

Like most of the Churches of Southern France, the Church of Toulouse did not preserve an authentic catalogue of the bishops. The oldest known list was inserted in a marginal note in the manuscript 9187 called Coutumes de Toulouse (Customs of Toulouse) of the latin fund of the National Library of France. The author of the remark, who finished its redaction on wednesday 18 july 1296, was identified by Henri Gilles as the toulousan jurist Arnaud d'Arpadelle (...1275-1312...) (Gilles 1969, p. 164-167 ; cf. p. 158-159 and 25). This nomenclature was known by the dominican historian Bernard Guy (1260/1261 - 1331), who used it to write a small treatise called Nomina episcoporum Tholose. Several copies, dated between 1313 to 1316, exist of this treatise. Another version, dated 1317 was used by a lawyer of Toulouse, Nicolas Bertrand (c. 1470 - 1527…) for his Opus de Tholosanorum Gestis, printed in 1515.

A bishop of Toulouse, Mamertinus, and the first bishop of Bordeaux, Orientalis, took part in the first council of Arles in 314.
The first council of Arles in 314 formally condemned the heresy of Donatism. It began as an appeal by the Donatists to Constantine the Great against the decision of the Council of Rome in 313 at the Lateran under Pope Miltiades. This is the first instance of an appeal of a Christian party to the secular power, and it turned out unfavorably to the Donatists who afterwards became enemies of the Roman authorities. The Council of Arles was the first called by Constantine and is the forerunner of the First Council of Nicaea. Augustine of Hippo called it an Ecumenical Council.

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09-04-2013, 08:28 AM	#2
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Thanks. I have now written a brief introduction to the HTML version: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pa...s_01_intro.htm There is discussion of the manuscripts in Cabau (linked from the intro). M is 11th c., M' is 10th c., P is 13th c., G1 is a little before 1317. Normal sorts of dates for Latin texts. There's a long biblio. Chapter 6 has to date no earlier than Bishop Exuperius; I suspect the argument is that so prolonged a bum-suck to Exuperius must be more or less contemporary (otherwise why bother?). Nothing in the material available to me explains the dates; one would have to read into the biblio. But apparently 2-5 are in a rather better literary style, suggesting different authors. All the best, Roger Pearse

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