Tommy

Other than the Pauline corpus what surviving contemporary documents do we have describing events between 30 and 70CE in Judea, Samaria, Galilee etc.?

I know that this is a very basic question, but I have not been able to find the right google search terms. I would be interested to know what documents might have, but in fact do not, support the canonical NT accounts.

Stuart

I do not think any Pauline Epistles can be placed before 120 CE, and Galatians could be as late as 155 CE in Marcionite form. This because the topics fit the debate about the Torah Law that was raging in the wake of the Bar Kokhba revolt and the dissolution of the province of Judea (probably 136 CE), which ended the Jewish assembly (Sanhedrin) and the Torah Law (Romans 10:4), and sparked the circumcision controversy, which was partially resolved around 138 CE when circumcision was allowed for Jews and their children by Antoninus Pius even without a province under Torah Law.

The Catholic layer in Paul I date much later, during the Antonine plague given the references to suffering even to death and disfiguration, but before Irenaeus.

From my view there are no texts prior to 120 CE. But I concede a layer in revelation, likely a Jewish and not Christian document, which covers chapters 6-12 and part of 19, was probably written before 80 CE, since the events described cover the period from 59-71 CE.

But that is my take.

aa5874

You are mistaken. The Pauline Corpus is NOT contemporary with events between 30-70 CE.

Essentially, there is virtually NO known historical event in the Pauline Corpus that is corroborated by non-apologetics.

Please name an historical event between 30-70 CE that is found in the Pauline Corpus.

yalla

Somewhat pedantically and facetiously I mention "God's wrath has come upon them at last" [from memory] as a possible reference to 66CE which puts it, at the earliest, on the later edge of your 30-70 range.
Its not much.

Stuart

You refer to Ephesians 5:6. This is not part of Marcion's text, but the later Catholic strata (all of 4:26-5:10). In this strata Christians are told to be imitators of God (how exactly?) and then includes Catholic themes of sacrifice to God (Jude, 2 Peter, et al), and Children of Light developed from Matthew 5:13-14 Salt of the Earth Light of the World (awesome phrases). Those getting the wrath are damned (υἱοὺς τῆς ἀπειθίας) developed from 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which seems to target a specific individual, rather than followers here indicating a later development. In 2 Thessalonians it is part of a sign of the end times, whereas in Ephesians it seems to target heretics. Again a later concern.

aa5874

Your claims about the Pauline Corpus appears to be Sunday School related. You are not really doing HISTORY.

Please identify a non-apologetic source that corroborates the Pauline Corpus and the chronology.

There are NO manuscripts of the Pauline Corpus that have been recovered and dated to any time before c 70 CE and no corroboration of any character called Jesus, the RESURRECTED Son of God, in the HISTORY of the Jews and Romans up to AT LEAST 121 CE.

It is completely unacceptable for you to use known manipulated texts with multiple unknown authors as corroboration for the texts itself.

The Jesus story in the Gospels was known, circulated and BELIEVED before the Believers were persecuted by Paul according to ALL APOLOGETICS who mentioned Paul or Saul.

The author of Acts, in the very Bible, KNEW the story of Jesus and claimed Peter, the supposed First Bishop of Rome, preached Christ Crucified and Resurrected BEFORE Paul was converted but wrote NOTHING of the Pauline Corpus.

There is simply no corroboration at all in the history of the Church or by non-apologetics of antiquity that the Pauline Corpus was composed before Paul PERSECUTED those who BELIEVED that Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead.

The Entire NT, INCLUDING the Pauline Corpus were composed AFTER c 70 CE and NO earlier than c 120 CE.

yalla

1 Thess 2.16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Toto

If you are looking for a history of the time, about the only surviving source is the work of Josephus.

You can just google Josephus - there are several web sites with his entire work and there are commentaries. There is a website http://www.josephus.org/ run by an interested amateur.

There is little or no support for the canonical NT accounts, other than some generalities about Pilate.

aa5874

Josephus is NOT the only source for accounts of the 1st century in the Roman Empire and Judea.

There is also Tacitus and Suetonius.

Tacitus a contemporary of Josephus wrote "Histories" which also include a short summary of the history of the Jews.

Tacitus' Histories CORROBORATES Josephus and it shows that the Jews did NOT worship human beings as Gods and that up to the time of the Jewish War c 66-70 CE there was NO known Jewish religion where Jews and Roman citizens worshiped a Resurrected Messianic ruler as a God.

The Jews expected their Messianic ruler at c 66-70 CE--NOT 1-33 CE.

The Pauline Corpus is essentially late FICTION--not actual history.

Tacitus' Histories 5 The claim in the Pauline Corpus that there were Churches in Christ in Judea and the Jews and Roman citizens worshiped a resurrected Messianic ruler Jesus as God Creator is WITHOUT corroboration by Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.

The Pauline Corpus does NOT reflect the History of the Jews and Roman citizens in the 1st century but fabricated at some LATER time AFTER c 121 CE and falsely attributed to an unknown character.

We now know that the Pauline Corpus was really the work of multiple authors and was unknown by many Jesus cult writers up to at least 180 CE.

Stuart

Note, in Marcion's text it is the Jews who are not saved, not the gentiles as in Romans 9:30-32, 10:1-3 (see Herman Detering's reconstruction). This is echoed in the Marcionite text of 1 Corinthians 9:20 and even Galatians 2:14. Paul never has a restriction to access the gentiles and he accepts no authority to restrict him.

The passage you note is not attested in Marcion (2:15 is) and I think there are some problems with the text about "saving them." The concept of obedience of the gentiles and of saving just some (e.g., Jude 22-23, Romans 16:25-27) rather than all is clearly post-Marcionite, which you should be aware. Also this is inconsistent with the view of Paul toward gentiles, as it places Paul as coming from a Jewish perspective to the gentiles.

However the wrath being targeted at Jewish Christians which is implied in 2:15, 17, is consistent with Romans 9:30-32, 10:1-3 and Pauline thought.

I have to conclude that 1 Thessalonians 2:16 is not the source of the Ephesians 5:6 passage, and the first part of 2:16 (not bold) probably from the same strata or later.