Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 07-17-2013, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

What makes him the obvious choice? Was he Barack Obama?
The way Romans were killing each other doesn't make for an obvious choice. But the author of Josephus was obviously familiar with the story involving R. Yochanan ben Zakkai.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The Yohanan Ben Zakkai story is probably the more dubious of the two based on general principles.

However both are plausible.

The Yohanan story is in the Rosh Hashana prayers.

A Nice Rosh Hashanah Story

A few years ago, my impression was that Yochanan was joking, similar to the way I might call some people doctor. One good thing about Jewish prayer services is that you have time to think.

As I mentioned above, Vespasian was the obvious choice for emperor and it's not that mind blowing if both guys predicted this.

I outlined this above...

Vespasian had a substantial army in the field, this made him a player in the game, in addition there was a lack of stable candidates.

I also quoted

Quote:

According to Suetonius, a prophecy ubiquitous in the Eastern provinces claimed that from Judaea would come the future rulers of the world. Vespasian eventually believed that this prophecy applied to him, and found a number of omens, oracles, and portents that reinforced this belief.[14]

This is absolutely fascinating, also in

Vespasian

Quote:

Josephus (as well as Tacitus), reporting on the conclusion of the Jewish war, claimed that it was Vespasian who was predicted in Jewish scripture to be the messiah.[12][13]

Even in the nice Jewish web link I gave, Vespasian is sort of the cool guy -

Quote:

“Peace to you king!! Peace to you king!!” To which Vespasian answered, “Rabbi Yochanan, you could be killed for two reasons: I am not a king and yet you call me king and, if I am a king, why did you not present yourself before me until now??”

The link analyzes this profound answer.

Duvduv · 07-17-2013, 06:01 AM

All this defense of this Josephus who is unknown in a Jewish context is unnecessary. The fact is that his interaction with Vespasian was clearly copied out of the story of R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai simply to shore up Josephus's reputation as a trustworthy source because the Conan Doyle writer saw it necessary as a literary device.

semiopen · 07-17-2013, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

All this defense of this Josephus who is unknown in a Jewish context is unnecessary. The fact is that his interaction with Vespasian was clearly copied out of the story of R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai simply to shore up Josephus's reputation as a trustworthy source because the Conan Doyle writer saw it necessary as a literary device.

Who is defending Josephus?

Why is it clear that he copied the Yohanan Ben Zakkai story? Did Tacticus and Suetonius copy this story also?

aa5874 · 07-17-2013, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

All this defense of this Josephus who is unknown in a Jewish context is unnecessary. The fact is that his interaction with Vespasian was clearly copied out of the story of R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai simply to shore up Josephus's reputation as a trustworthy source because the Conan Doyle writer saw it necessary as a literary device.

Your statement is completely unsubstantiated. You cannot show that the Talmud is credible, cannot show that it was composed before the works of Josephus and cannot show that any other source corroborated the story of R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai.

The Talmud is a source of fiction.

Duvduv · 07-17-2013, 08:22 AM

This is laughable. Here's a guy who constantly claims the 2nd century authenticity of a couple of unsubstantiated texts by someone named "Justin" trying to echo me in an unsubstantiated manner.
Besides, I never said the Talmud story preceded a text by "Josephus," but simply that the story itself about R. Yochanan ben Zakkai was a known story, which is where "Josephus" got it to add to his collection of fake stories.
I know you believe that all the volumes of the Talmud contain nothing to substantiate ancient Jewish life, but then at least admit the same thing for works unknown to the Jewish people under the name of Josephus with
stories that cannot be substantiated in any Jewish texts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

All this defense of this Josephus who is unknown in a Jewish context is unnecessary. The fact is that his interaction with Vespasian was clearly copied out of the story of R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai simply to shore up Josephus's reputation as a trustworthy source because the Conan Doyle writer saw it necessary as a literary device.

Your statement is completely unsubstantiated. You cannot show that the Talmud is credible, cannot show that it was composed before the works of Josephus and cannot show that any other source corroborated the story of R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai.

The Talmud is a source of fiction.

Duvduv · 07-17-2013, 08:25 AM

There is more than enough weight to the claim that the writings attributed to "Josephus" contain unsubstantiated stories as the author presents "himself" to his Roman patrons. The importance of Vespasian in hindsight is no proof that the story of the prophecy of Josephus was true in comparison to that of R. Yochanan. Especially since there is no substantiation of the qualifications of "Josephus" to make such claims in a Jewish context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

All this defense of this Josephus who is unknown in a Jewish context is unnecessary. The fact is that his interaction with Vespasian was clearly copied out of the story of R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai simply to shore up Josephus's reputation as a trustworthy source because the Conan Doyle writer saw it necessary as a literary device.

Who is defending Josephus?

Why is it clear that he copied the Yohanan Ben Zakkai story? Did Tacticus and Suetonius copy this story also?

Minimalist · 07-17-2013, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Josephus exposed that Pilate the procurator of Judea was recalled by Tiberius for acts of genocide.

If Pilate suppressed a revolt in Samaria he was doing what a Roman Prefect was supposed to do.

Far more likely that Pilate, whose term began in 26 coincidentally when Sejanus began running the day to day affairs of the empire while Tiberius was in semi-retirement on Capri was simply removed by Vitellius for being one of Sejanus' men once Sejanus was executed. Roman politics makes a better case for removal than Josephus' wild mutterings.

aa5874 · 07-17-2013, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

This is laughable. Here's a guy who constantly claims the 2nd century authenticity of a couple of unsubstantiated texts by someone named "Justin" trying to echo me in an unsubstantiated manner.
Besides, I never said the Talmud story preceded a text by "Josephus," but simply that the story itself about R. Yochanan ben Zakkai was a known story, which is where "Josephus" got it to add to his collection of fake stories.
I know you believe that all the volumes of the Talmud contain nothing to substantiate ancient Jewish life, but then at least admit the same thing for works unknown to the Jewish people under the name of Josephus with
stories that cannot be substantiated in any Jewish texts.

You are engaged in a double standard. You have not presented any corroboration for the Talmud story about R. Yochanan ben Zakkai and have not presented any evidence that the Talmud story was known in the 1st century.

I do not entertain strawman arguments.

Please present corroboration for your Talmud story about R. Yochanan ben Zakkai in the OP.

An examination of the Talmud has exposed that it is a source of fiction and implausibilities.

You must tell us when the Talmud was composed and tell us the earliest reference to the R. Yochanan ben Zakkai story in the Talmud.

Duvduv · 07-17-2013, 01:00 PM

I am not going to be drawn into your attempt to redirect away from the points I raised. I was specifically indicating that lack of reliability of the author called Josephus and his stories. If you wish to address those points then you can go back and reread all of our exchanges. However, I am not going to be distracted in this thread away from my original points.

semiopen · 07-17-2013, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You are engaged in a double standard. You have not presented any corroboration for the Talmud story about R. Yochanan ben Zakkai and have not presented any evidence that the Talmud story was known in the 1st century.

I do not entertain strawman arguments.

Please present corroboration for your Talmud story about R. Yochanan ben Zakkai in the OP.

An examination of the Talmud has exposed that it is a source of fiction and implausibilities.

You must tell us when the Talmud was composed and tell us the earliest reference to the R. Yochanan ben Zakkai story in the Talmud.

Good luck getting a response from Duvi on this.

Vespasian

Quote:

After joining his son Titus, who had advanced with an army from Alexandria, Vespasian found himself in command of a powerful force, consisting of the fifth, tenth, and fifteenth legions, twenty-three auxiliary cohorts, and six squadrons of horse, in addition to the troops of the native vassals, of the Jewish King Agrippa II., and of the kings of Commagene, Emesa, and Arabia (Josephus, "B. J." iii. 7, § 1). The entire Roman army must have mustered at least 60,000 men.

60K men was a huge army. A guy with am army like that has a l;ot of political power.

Quote:

Vespasian doubtless desired to prolong the campaign in Judea, since this left him in command of a large army, which was desirable in view of the imperial succession.

Unlike Russell Crowe in Gladiator.

Quote:

In the meantime the imperial throne of Rome had been filled successively by Galba, Otho, and Vitellius; and the Oriental legions, following the example of the army of the Rhine, gave an emperor to Rome in the person of Vespasian. This event, which was to prove important for the history of the world, was doubtless planned in Palestine, where, according to Josephus, the proclamation was issued, although Tacitus and Suetonius assert that the Egyptian legions were the first to hail Vespasian emperor, on July 1, 69. Two personages of Jewish descent were particularly active in connection with this event—Berenice, the mistress of Titus, and Tiberius Julius Alexander, governor of Egypt. Josephus boasts that he foretold Vespasian's election to Vespasian himself and received his freedom as well as permission to accompany the emperor to Alexandria as a reward for his prophecy. According to Talmudic sources, however, Johanan ben Zakkai was the first to predict Vespasian's elevation to the imperial throne. The statement that he was unable to draw on one of his shoes for joy (Giṭ. 56b) may be explained by the fact that the phrase "calceos mutare" (to change the shoes) was used also to denote promotion to a higher rank ("Monatsschrift," 1904, p. 277). The fact that the proclamation of Vespasian was issued from Judea led Josephus, followed herein by Tacitus ("Hist." v. 13) and Suetonius ("Vespasianus," § 4), to interpret an ancient oracle foretelling that a ruler from Judea should acquire dominion over the entire world as an allusion to Vespasian (Josephus, l.c. vi. 5, § 4). The new emperor left his son Titus in command of the army, while he himself hurried to Rome to take possession of the throne.

I don't see this story as some kind of rivalry between Josephus and Yohanan.

The link goes on to note Talmudic references.

None of these seems to be earlier than the 3rd century CE, but perhaps Duvi will be bold enough to refute this by stating "Yes they are" in any case the writings seem confused and totally ahistorical... but maybe that's just me.

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07-17-2013, 06:01 AM	#22
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	All this defense of this Josephus who is unknown in a Jewish context is unnecessary. The fact is that his interaction with Vespasian was clearly copied out of the story of R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai simply to shore up Josephus's reputation as a trustworthy source because the Conan Doyle writer saw it necessary as a literary device.

07-17-2013, 01:00 PM	#29
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I am not going to be drawn into your attempt to redirect away from the points I raised. I was specifically indicating that lack of reliability of the author called Josephus and his stories. If you wish to address those points then you can go back and reread all of our exchanges. However, I am not going to be distracted in this thread away from my original points.

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