Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 07-26-2013, 10:46 AM

One of the underpinnings of the conspiracy theory that Morton Smith forged the Letter to Theodore is that he was a repressed homosexual - and thus a criminal at least in his own mind - and 'took out' his aggression on the Church by forging a letter which has a clandestine purpose of 'proving' that Jesus was gay. I have always found this line of reasoning utterly silly. There is no evidence to suggest he was gay, plenty of evidence to support he had sex with women before and after his discovery etc. But first and foremost there is the question of 'naked with naked' in the letter itself. Is that a homosexual reference or - as Hedrick and others have pondered - did the ancients have a different idea of nakedness than ourselves?

I was researching something else completely when I stumbled upon this reference to Apollonius of Tyana in Philostratus. I am looking for the original Greek but the only difference I see immediately is that the second 'naked' is plural but that's hardly a big deal:

Quote:

"At the age of fourteen," he tells Apollonius, " I resigned my patrimony to those who desired such things, and naked I sought the naked (gymnoi)" (vi. 16). This is the very same diction that Philo uses about the Therapeut communities, which he declares were very numerous in every province of Egypt and scattered in all lands. We are not, however, to suppose that these communities were all of the same nature. [Mead p. 100]

When we go back to the Letter to Theodore I wonder if the echo here of 'naked with naked' is simply a question which echoes the popularity of the sectarian movement in contemporary Egypt or even the saying 'naked with naked' in philosophical circles (I notice for instance that Maximus of Tyre uses the formula 'the naked to the naked, the loving to the loved, and the free to the free' (γυμνὸν γυμνῷ, φίλον φίλῳ, ἐλεύθερον ἐλευθέρῳ).

Again the reference in the Letter to Theodore is:

Quote:

τὸ δε γυμνὸς γυμνῷ και ταλλα περι ων εγραψας ουκ ευρισκεται.

But “naked man with naked man,” and the other things about which you wrote, are not found (III.14)

Clement speaks in very similar terms throughout his writings such as the speech at the end of Exhortation:

Quote:

I anoint you with the ungent of faith, by which you throw off corruption, and show you the naked form of righteousness (καὶ γυμνὸν δικαιοσύνης) by which you ascend to God. [Exhort. 121]

and again elsewhere in a passage specifically related to Secret Mark:

Quote:

Wherefore also the Lord says, “Sell what thou hast, and give to the poor; and come, follow me.” Follow God, naked of arrogance (γυμνὸς ἀλαζονείας), naked of fading display (γυμνὸς ἐπικήρου πομπῆς), possessed of that which is thine, which is good, what alone cannot be taken away—faith towards God, confession towards Him who suffered, beneficence towards men, which is the most precious of possessions.

and again:

Quote:

Why then command as new, as divine, as alone life-giving, what did not save those of former days? And what peculiar thing is it that the new creature (ἡ καινὴ κτισις) the Son of God intimates and teaches? It is not the outward act which others have done, but something else indicated by it, greater, more godlike, more perfect, the stripping off (γυμνῶσαι) of the passions from the soul itself and from the disposition, and the cutting up by the roots and casting out of what is alien (ἀλλότρια) to the mind. [Quis Dives Salvetur 10 - 12]

This allusion to nakedness and Mark 10:17 - 31 is made repeated in Clement's writings and that of Jerome (nudus nudum or nudum Christum nudus setjuere or some such related terminology).

Robert Murray in his Symbols of Church and Kingdom: a Study in Early Syriac Tradition brings forward an important example here from the writings of Ephrem the Syrian:

Quote:

The principal passage on the Holy Spirit in all Ephrem's works is HFid. 74-2 The Spirit is symbolized mainly as warmth, emitted by the sun as the Spirit is sent by the Father. The Spirit warms the naked and clothes them as Adam was clothed with glory; and then, passing to the Apostles by means of an untranslatable play on shlikha which means both 'naked' and 'sent' (apostle), Ephrem continues:

[Warmth] is dear to all who are naked/sent,
sending them forth as eager workers for all [sorts of] tasks.

Even so the Spirit clothed the naked/Apostles,
as it sent them forth to the four winds [lit. directions] upon their tasks.

By means of warmth all things ripen,
as by the Spirit all are sanctified, a transparent symbol! [p. 80]

The point of course is that this is only one of many such references in the writings of Ephrem where it would appear that the 'apostles' are so called because they received baptism (i.e. that 'naked' they were clothed by the Holy Spirit). This concept becomes a little clearer from other references in Ephrem's writings. In Rhythm the Fifth Jesus is likened to a pearl for whom men strip off their clothes to seek and find:

Quote:

Men with their clothes off dived and drew thee out, pearl! It was not kings that put thee before men, but those naked ones who were a type of the poor and the fishers and the Galileans; for clothed bodies were not able to come to thee; they came that were stript as children; they buried their bodies and came down to thee, and thou didst much desire them, and thou didst aid them who thus loved thee.

Glad tidings did they give for thee : their tongues before their bosoms did the poor [fishers] open, and produced and showed the new riches among the merchants : upon the wrists of men they put thee as a medicine of life. The naked ones in a type saw thy rising again by the sea-shore ; and by the side of the lake they, the Apostles of a truth, saw the rising again of the Son of thy Creator.

By thee and by thy Lord the sea and the lake were beautified. The diver came up from the sea and put on his clothing ; and from the lake too Simon Peter came up swimming and put on his coat ; 1 clad as with coats, with the love of both of you, were these two.

And since I have wandered in thee pearl, I will gather up my mind, and by having contemplated thee, would become like thee, in that thou art all gathered up into thyself; and as thou in all times art one, one let me become by thee!

I am not saying of course that Apollonius of Tyana's 'naked' are Christians or even related to Christianity. But I think that if we look at 'naked with naked' in contemporary terms, it is not a homosexual reference at all but likely a philosophical one which is entirely in keeping with what might be said by the circles that Clement habituated.

If it is not a homosexual reference, then the case for forgery is even weaker than it already is because you lose any case for motivation.

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-26-2013, 07:44 PM

Don't forget Thomas 37 either:

"His disciples say to him: "When wilt thou appear to us, and when shall we see thee?" He says <to them:> "When you strip yourselves and are not ashamed."

Clearly "naked" had a symbolic meaning (Robert Price has said that i Gnostic terminology "clothes" are probably symbolic for the flesh and "naked" symbolizes the spiritual self trapped within the "clothing" of the body.

Naked *man* with *man* still sounds pretty gay, though.

I had always assumed Smith was gay myself, until I recently discovered there was no actual evidence for it. I guess I had just seen the rumor so many times I'd assumed it was true.

stephan huller · 07-26-2013, 08:30 PM

But nudity is approached very differently in different cultures. For instance, when Clement imagined Jacob wrestling with the ish he was sure it was done in the nude. I am not sure that two men naked or a group of men naked was necessarily conceived as a homosexual gathering in antiquity. There are guys in the locker room even today (Steve Balmer) who feel comfortable walking around totally naked with other men going blah, blah, blah standing three inches from a guy they don't know, leaning on his locker door going blah, blah, blah while the other guy pretends not to notice their thing hanging there.

Surely there have been two of these blah, blah, blah naked guys in the locker room at the same health club who've experienced each other's annoying habits. Maybe their are best friends with wife and kids but they go to the locker room together work out and then go blah, blah, blah together naked in the locker room for hours.

Look at Plato and the idea the dead and their judge will be naked. I am sure people who live in a nudist colony don't associate nudity and sexuality (although it would certainly be more difficult to disguise arousal for men and women).

mountainman · 07-26-2013, 10:52 PM

Philostratus refers to Apollonius travelling and conversing with the Gymnosophists (meaning "naked philosophers") in Egypt.

Quote:

Gymnosophists is the name (meaning "naked philosophers") given by the Greeks to certain ancient Indian philosophers who pursued asceticism to the point of regarding food and clothing as detrimental to purity of thought (sadhus or yogis).

See Apollonius of Tyana by G.R.S. Mead, [1901].

Quote:

Originally Posted by p. 99, SECTION X

THE GYMNOSOPHISTS OF UPPER EGYPT

A chance sentence that falls from the lips of one of these ascetics, in giving the story of his life, affords us a clue to the real meaning of the term. "At the age of fourteen," he tells Apollonius, "I resigned my patrimony to those who desired such things, and naked I sought the Naked" (vi. 16). *

This is the very same diction that Philo uses about the Therapeut communities, which he declares were very numerous in every province of Egypt and scattered in all lands

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

andrewcriddle · 07-27-2013, 03:49 AM

I agree that naked with naked is not intrinsically erotic (either in ancient culture or in ours.)

However, in to the letter to Theodore, the phrase is implied to be a Carpocratian addition to, or interpretation of, Secret Mark, which presumably is intended to support Carpocratian beliefs and practices.

Andrew Criddle

PhilosopherJay · 07-27-2013, 06:38 AM

I'm not sure about ancient times, but in modern times the concept of nakedness may have erotic undertones when associated with religious themes like foregiveness of sins.

Here is a song on Youtube from 1929 that connects nakedness, dancing and baptism. It is sung by the amazing singer Lee Morse. Her father was a snake oil selling, traveling preacher.

I suspect that the original title was "Tain't No Sin to Dance Around in Your Skin," but it was changed to "bones" to avoid the strict record and radio censorship of the era.

While Lee did not write the song, I believe she did contribute the last verse at 2:45 on the video:

Quote:

Now, we all gathered by the river,
Listen to your Deacon Jones,
“Tain’t no sin to take off your skin and dance around in your bones,”
You must all go in that water,
Let me hear your sinful groans,
“Tain’t no sin to take off your skin and dance around in your bones,”
Do what I say, right away, wicked sinners, cause this is your judgement day,
Come Manda Lee, in the river with me, wash your sins away,
Throw away your gin and razors,
Throw away your gambling bones,
“Tain’t no sin to take off your skin and dance around in your bones,”

This 1929/1930 song also contains perhaps the earliest musical reference to "television" in the line, "No more singing in the bathtub with those television phones."

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

arnoldo · 07-27-2013, 10:05 AM

There is also the account in 2 Samuel 6 of David dancing with a linen garment and perhaps uncovering himself sometime during his performance.

Quote:

And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!

stephan huller · 07-28-2013, 12:14 AM

Quote:

However, in to the letter to Theodore, the phrase is implied to be a Carpocratian addition to, or interpretation of, Secret Mark, which presumably is intended to support Carpocratian beliefs and practices.

But you've already noted that there is no evidence to suggest that the Carpocratians were a sect that engaged in homosexual orgies or homosexual sex. Indeed Morton Smith did not make identify the letter as referencing homosexuality. There are two alleged references but neither says 'Jesus is gay' or that the letter says he was gay or that the practices of the Carpocratians were gay:

Quote:

1.(p. 154) ἴδε πῶς ἐφίλει αὐτό is intended to show how the Jews twisted Jesus's innocent sorrow into evidence for a charge of homosexuality ...

2.At this point Clement tells Theodore, τὸ δε γυμνὸς γυμνῷ και ταλλα περι ων εγραψας ουκ ευρισκεται; in other words, the longer text as used in Clement's church (or, as Clement chose to describe it) did not contain some material - including the phrase γυμνὸς γυμνῷ - which Theodore had reported as standing hereabouts in the Carpocratian text. Since the Carpocratians had a reputation for sexual license (see Appendix B) and this section of the longer text reported that a youth came to Jesus περιβεβλημενος σινδονα επι γυμνου and stayed with him all night, it is easy to suppose that the Carpocratians took the opportunity to insert in the text some material which would authorize homosexual relationship Clement suggested by picking out γυμνὸς γυμνῷ. Similar developments might be thought to lie behind the celebration of baptism in Acta Thomae 27 ... and sayings like Gospel of Thomas (Leopoldt) 108, "Jesus said, 'He who will drink of my mouth will become like me, and I shall be he, and the hidden things shall be revealed to him" ... However Clement does not explicitly say that the additional material was sexually offensive, and would hardly have missed the chance to say so if it had been. Therefore the γυμνὸς γυμνῷ probably belonged to a fuller account of the ritual. Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition XXI.11, after speaking of the catechumen and the presbyter who is to baptize him, goes on to specify, "And let him stand in the water naked" ...

So - once again, Smith does not say the reference has anything to do with homosexuality. He brings it up (undoubtedly because one of his colleagues whom he consulted while developing the 1973 scholarly book brought it up) only to shoot it down. And the reference itself isn't likely to be sexual at all. So its a very weak argument that this is some sort of a plot to introduce the idea that Jesus is gay - even though the idea already exists in Judaism as he rightly notes in the first footnote. I don't get the 'there there' here.

Quote:

the unspeakable teachings of the Carpocratians. For these are "wandering stars" referred to in the prophecy, who wander from the narrow road of the commandments into a boundless abyss of the carnal and bodily sins. For, priding themselves in knowledge, as they say, "of the deep things of Satan, they do not know that they are casting themselves away into "the netherworld of the darkness" of falseness, and boasting that they are free, they have become slaves of servile desires. Such men are to be opposed in all ways and alltogether. For, even if they should say something true, one who loves the truth should not, even so, agree with them. For not all true things are the truth, nor should that truth which merely seems true according to human opinions be prefered to the true truth, that according to the faith.

Now of the things they keep saying about the divinely inspired Gospel according to Mark, some are altogether falsifications, and others, even if they do contain some true elements, nevertheless are not reported truely. For the true things being mixed with inventions, are falsified , so that, as the saying goes, even the salt loses its savor.

As for Mark, then, during Peter`s stay in Rome he wrote an account of the Lord`s doings, not, however, declaring all of them, nor yet hinting at the secret ones, but selecting what he thought most useful for increasing the faith of those who were being instructed. But when Peter died a martyr, Mark came over to Alexandria, bringing both his own notes and those of Peter, from which he transferred to his former books the things suitable to whatever makes for progress toward knowledge. Thus he composed a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord, but to the stories already written he added yet others and, moreover, brought in certain sayings of which he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue , lead the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of truth hidden by seven veils. Thus, in sum, he prepared matters, neither grudgingly nor incautionously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the church in 1, verso Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initated into the great mysteries.

But since the foul demons are always devising destruction for the race of men, Carpocrates, instructed by them and using deceitful arts, so enslaved a certain presbyter of the church in Alexandria that he got from him a copy of the secret Gospel, which he both interpreted according to his blasphemous and carnal doctrine and, moreover, polluted, mixing with the spotless and holy words utterly shameless lies. From this mixture is withdrawn off the teaching of the Carpocratians.

andrewcriddle · 07-28-2013, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

However, in to the letter to Theodore, the phrase is implied to be a Carpocratian addition to, or interpretation of, Secret Mark, which presumably is intended to support Carpocratian beliefs and practices.

But you've already noted that there is no evidence to suggest that the Carpocratians were a sect that engaged in homosexual orgies or homosexual sex. Indeed Morton Smith did not make identify the letter as referencing homosexuality. There are two alleged references but neither says 'Jesus is gay' or that the letter says he was gay or that the practices of the Carpocratians were gay:

It seems clear to me that the letter implies that the phrase 'naked with naked' is a Carpocratian addition. Assuming authenticity of the Mar Saba letter, it would be quite possible that the phrase was original, and had been omitted by Clement's church because of the way the Carpocratians interpreted it, but that is not what the letter claims. (Morton Smith's detailed suggestion assumes that the secret Gospel was used in baptism, which has its own problems.)

It seems clear to me that the letter implies that the secret Gospel was used by the Carpocratians to justify sexual practices of some sort. The letter does not explicitly refer to homosexual practices, but it is hard to see how a narrative where the main actors are males and where women seem almost to be marginalised would be used to justify heterosexual rituals.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 07-28-2013, 11:17 AM

Quote:

baptism

Umm, you must be born again. What suit does one get on one's birthday?

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07-26-2013, 07:44 PM	#2
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Don't forget Thomas 37 either: "His disciples say to him: "When wilt thou appear to us, and when shall we see thee?" He says <to them:> "When you strip yourselves and are not ashamed." Clearly "naked" had a symbolic meaning (Robert Price has said that i Gnostic terminology "clothes" are probably symbolic for the flesh and "naked" symbolizes the spiritual self trapped within the "clothing" of the body. Naked man with man still sounds pretty gay, though. I had always assumed Smith was gay myself, until I recently discovered there was no actual evidence for it. I guess I had just seen the rumor so many times I'd assumed it was true.

07-26-2013, 08:30 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But nudity is approached very differently in different cultures. For instance, when Clement imagined Jacob wrestling with the ish he was sure it was done in the nude. I am not sure that two men naked or a group of men naked was necessarily conceived as a homosexual gathering in antiquity. There are guys in the locker room even today (Steve Balmer) who feel comfortable walking around totally naked with other men going blah, blah, blah standing three inches from a guy they don't know, leaning on his locker door going blah, blah, blah while the other guy pretends not to notice their thing hanging there. Surely there have been two of these blah, blah, blah naked guys in the locker room at the same health club who've experienced each other's annoying habits. Maybe their are best friends with wife and kids but they go to the locker room together work out and then go blah, blah, blah together naked in the locker room for hours. Look at Plato and the idea the dead and their judge will be naked. I am sure people who live in a nudist colony don't associate nudity and sexuality (although it would certainly be more difficult to disguise arousal for men and women).

07-27-2013, 03:49 AM	#5
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	I agree that naked with naked is not intrinsically erotic (either in ancient culture or in ours.) However, in to the letter to Theodore, the phrase is implied to be a Carpocratian addition to, or interpretation of, Secret Mark, which presumably is intended to support Carpocratian beliefs and practices. Andrew Criddle

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