Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 07-23-2013, 10:06 PM

In a letter c.325 CE Constantine stated that Porphyry "fully and insatiably used base fame". (See the letter in full below). The sources for this letter are given as:

(1) Socrates Scholasticus’ Ecclesiastical History 1:9 and also

(2) a translation of a Syriac translation of this, written in 501, is in B. H. Cowper’s, Syriac Miscellanies, Extracts From The Syriac Ms. No. 14528 In The British Museum, Lond. 1861, p. 6– 7).

Can anyone advise whether this letter in its original Greek form is available anywhere online and/or what is the Greek term that has been translated into the English as "base fame"?

SOURCE

Quote:

(325AD) Letter of Constantine to the churches.

Synopsis: Against Arius and the Porphyrians, and threatens that any one who conceals a work of Arius shall be punished with death.

Constantine the King to the Bishops and nations everywhere.

Inasmuch as Arius imitates the evil and the wicked, it is right that, like them, he should be rebuked and rejected. As therefore Porphyry, who was an enemy of the fear of God, and wrote wicked and unlawful writings against the religion of Christians, found the reward which befitted him, that he might be a reproach to all generations after, because he fully and insatiably used base fame; so that on this account his writings were righteously destroyed; thus also now it seems good that Arius and the holders of his opinion should all be called Porphyrians, that he may be named by the name of those whose evil ways he imitates: And not only this, but also that all the writings of Arius, wherever they be found, shall be delivered to be burned with fire, in order that not only his wicked and evil doctrine may be destroyed, but also that the memory of himself and of his doctrine may be blotted out, that there may not by any means remain to him remembrance in the world. Now this also I ordain, that if any one shall be found secreting any writing composed by Arius, and shall not forthwith deliver up and burn it with fire, his punishment shall be death; for as soon as he is caught in this he shall suffer capital punishment by beheading without delay.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 07-23-2013, 11:29 PM

I think I have found a greek translation.

The following is from Migne - Patrologia Graeca et Cetera Graeca Scripta for Ecclesiastica Hstoria 1 (Hussey Editore) ....

Can anyone point out the Greek term translated as "base fame"?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Toto · 07-24-2013, 02:09 PM

The word kakodoxias jumps out at me, but it means bad belief, not base fame.

stephan huller · 07-24-2013, 02:16 PM

How about the common European term kaka which perfectly describes this line of inquiry

Toto · 07-24-2013, 08:04 PM

Our old friend Jeffrey Gibson appears to be asking a similar question about the Syriac here.

I'm not sure what the purpose of this quest is in either case.

But - a Google search gives a reference where kakodoxias in Josephus is translated as "bad reputation." AGAINST APION, II. 31-36 - see this definition

Quote:

ka^kodox-ia, hê, bad repute, X.Ap.31, Pl.R.361c.

II. heretical opinion, Just.Nov.109Praef.

Although the usual definition of cacodoxy is

Quote:

Definition of CACODOXY
: perverse teachings : heterodoxy
Origin of CACODOXY
LGk kakodoxia heretical opinion, fr. Gk kak- cac- + -doxia (fr. doxa opinion, fr. dokein to seem) — more at decent

Bad opinion makes more sense in this context than bad repute.

mountainman · 07-24-2013, 11:57 PM

Thanks Toto for the excellent detective work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Our old friend Jeffrey Gibson appears to be asking a similar question about the Syriac here.

I'm not sure what the purpose of this quest is in either case.

Dr Gibson's quest seems to have been related to spin's challenge at this post in the (now relegated to ~elsewhere) thread as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Arius was writing books that collected and gathered terrible and lawless impieties.

Where does Constantine talk of books?

Jeffrey's questions related to the same letter in the OP but his concern over the capitalized WRITINGS, TREATISE and BOOK indicates that he was questioning whether Arius actually wrote books. I think the sources indicate that he did, especially Constantine's letter of 333 CE.

My quest OTOH relates to the meaning of the term "base fame" which I could never quite understand.

But I think you have provided an appropriate explanation ...

Quote:

But - a Google search gives a reference where kakodoxias in Josephus is translated as "bad reputation." AGAINST APION, II. 31-36 - see this definition

Quote:

ka^kodox-ia, hê, bad repute, X.Ap.31, Pl.R.361c.

II. heretical opinion, Just.Nov.109Praef.

Although the usual definition of cacodoxy is

Quote:

Definition of CACODOXY
: perverse teachings : heterodoxy
Origin of CACODOXY
LGk kakodoxia heretical opinion, fr. Gk kak- cac- + -doxia (fr. doxa opinion, fr. dokein to seem) — more at decent

Bad opinion makes more sense in this context than bad repute.

The opinion was so bad as to be deemed heretical at the time.

I think that "heretical opinion" may make more sense in the context:

Quote:

Inasmuch as Arius imitates the evil and the wicked, it is right that, like them, he should be rebuked and rejected. As therefore Porphyry, who was an enemy of the fear of God, and wrote wicked and unlawful writings against the religion of Christians, found the reward which befitted him, that he might be a reproach to all generations after, because he fully and insatiably used base fame heretical opinion; so that on this account his writings were righteously destroyed; .....................

There is no doubt that Arius used "heretical opinions" against the church.

Thanks again.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Toto · 07-25-2013, 01:35 AM

"Base fame" - bad reputation.

I don't get the connection between this and whether Arius wrote books (or codices) But I see that Jeffrey asked for the Syriac behind "base fame" as well as "writings" on that other thread.

mountainman · 07-25-2013, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

"Base fame" - bad reputation.

I don't get the connection between this and whether Arius wrote books (or codices)

There isn't a connection. They were separate lines of enquiry.

Quote:

But I see that Jeffrey asked for the Syriac behind "base fame" as well as "writings" on that other thread.

I don't see that on the other thread.

Two separate translations appear in that thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by First Translation posted by JG

Since Arius has imitated wicked and impious persons, it is just that he should undergo the like ignominy. Wherefore as Porphyry, that enemy of piety, for having composed licentious treatises against religion, found a suitable recompense, and such as thenceforth branded him with infamy, overwhelming him with deserved reproach, his impious WRITINGS also having been destroyed ................

The second translation posted was the same as the one above.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

DCHindley · 07-25-2013, 06:17 AM

mm,

Toto nailed it.

Νικητὴς Κωνσταντῖνος, μέγιστος, Σεβαστὸς, ἐπισκόποις καὶ λαοῖς.	Victor Constantine Maximus Augustus, to the bishops and people.--
Τοὺς πονηροὺς καὶ ἀσεβεῖς μιμησάμενος Ἄρειος,	Since Arius has imitated wicked and impious persons,
δίκαιός ἐστι τὴν αὐτὴν ἐκείνοις ὑπέχειν ἀτιμίαν.	it is just that he should undergo the like ignominy.
Ὥσπερ τοίνυν Πορφύριος ὁ τῆς θεοσεβείας ἐχθρὸς,	Wherefore as Porphyry,2 that enemy of piety,
συντάγματα παράνομα κατὰ τῆς θρησκείας συστησάμενος,	for having composed licentious treatises against religion,
ἄξιον εὕρετο μισθὸν,	found a suitable recompense,
καὶ τοιοῦτον ὥστε ἐπονείδιστον μὲν αὐτὸν πρὸς τὸν ἑξῆς γενέσθαι χρόνον καὶ πλείστης ἀναπλησθῆναι κακοδοξίας,	and such as thenceforth branded him with infamy, overwhelming him with deserved reproach,
ἀφανισθῆναι δὲ τὰ ἀσεβῆ αὐτοῦ συγγράμματα·	his impious writings also having been destroyed;

κακοδοξίας
noun sg fem gen
κακοδοξ-ία , ἡ,
A.bad repute, X.Ap.31, Pl.R.361c.
II. heretical opinion, Just.Nov.109Praef.

A PDF with the Uncode Greek text is here, page 14.

DCH (on union mandated mid-morning break)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

In a letter c.325 CE Constantine stated that Porphyry "fully and insatiably used base fame". (See the letter in full below). The sources for this letter are given as:

(1) Socrates Scholasticus’ Ecclesiastical History 1:9 and also

(2) a translation of a Syriac translation of this, written in 501, is in B. H. Cowper’s, Syriac Miscellanies, Extracts From The Syriac Ms. No. 14528 In The British Museum, Lond. 1861, p. 6– 7).

Can anyone advise whether this letter in its original Greek form is available anywhere online and/or what is the Greek term that has been translated into the English as "base fame"?

SOURCE

Quote:

(325AD) Letter of Constantine to the churches.

Synopsis: Against Arius and the Porphyrians, and threatens that any one who conceals a work of Arius shall be punished with death.

Constantine the King to the Bishops and nations everywhere.

Inasmuch as Arius imitates the evil and the wicked, it is right that, like them, he should be rebuked and rejected. As therefore Porphyry, who was an enemy of the fear of God, and wrote wicked and unlawful writings against the religion of Christians, found the reward which befitted him, that he might be a reproach to all generations after, because he fully and insatiably used base fame; so that on this account his writings were righteously destroyed; thus also now it seems good that Arius and the holders of his opinion should all be called Porphyrians, that he may be named by the name of those whose evil ways he imitates: And not only this, but also that all the writings of Arius, wherever they be found, shall be delivered to be burned with fire, in order that not only his wicked and evil doctrine may be destroyed, but also that the memory of himself and of his doctrine may be blotted out, that there may not by any means remain to him remembrance in the world. Now this also I ordain, that if any one shall be found secreting any writing composed by Arius, and shall not forthwith deliver up and burn it with fire, his punishment shall be death; for as soon as he is caught in this he shall suffer capital punishment by beheading without delay.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 07-25-2013, 07:56 PM

dch,

I entirely agree.

Besides our manifest differences of opinion his contributions are often very well informed and accurate.

BTW thanks very much for the Unicode greek and the Perseus link containing the word stats

Quote:

Words in Corpus

Max

Max/10k

Min

Min/10k

Corpus Name

146389 7 0.478 7 0.478 Basil, Saint, Bishop of Caesarea, Epistulae
399409 6 0.15 6 0.15 Cassius Dio Cocceianus, Historiae Romanae

20885 1 0.479 1 0.479 Elegy and Iambus, Volume II
15349 1 0.652 1 0.652 Plutarch, Apophthegmata Laconica
20511 1 0.488 1 0.488 Flavius Josephus, Contra Apionem
29370 1 0.34 1 0.34 Xenophon, Works on Socrates
88388 1 0.113 1 0.113 Plato, Republic
11854 1 0.844 1 0.844 Plutarch, Dion
7595 1 1.317 1 1.317 Philostratus the Athenian, Epistulae et dialexeis
125221 1 0.08 1 0.08 Flavius Josephus, De bello Judaico libri vii
10962 1 0.912 1 0.912 Plutarch, Agesilaus
305870 1 0.033 1 0.033 Flavius Josephus, Antiquitates Judaicae
14225 1 0.703 1 0.703 Plutarch, Apophthegmata Laconica
2882 1 3.47 1 3.47 Lucian, Phalaris

I intend to browse through these instances of word use over the next while.

Thanks again.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

mm,

Toto nailed it.

Νικητὴς Κωνσταντῖνος, μέγιστος, Σεβαστὸς, ἐπισκόποις καὶ λαοῖς.	Victor Constantine Maximus Augustus, to the bishops and people.--
Τοὺς πονηροὺς καὶ ἀσεβεῖς μιμησάμενος Ἄρειος,	Since Arius has imitated wicked and impious persons,
δίκαιός ἐστι τὴν αὐτὴν ἐκείνοις ὑπέχειν ἀτιμίαν.	it is just that he should undergo the like ignominy.
Ὥσπερ τοίνυν Πορφύριος ὁ τῆς θεοσεβείας ἐχθρὸς,	Wherefore as Porphyry,2 that enemy of piety,
συντάγματα παράνομα κατὰ τῆς θρησκείας συστησάμενος,	for having composed licentious treatises against religion,
ἄξιον εὕρετο μισθὸν,	found a suitable recompense,
καὶ τοιοῦτον ὥστε ἐπονείδιστον μὲν αὐτὸν πρὸς τὸν ἑξῆς γενέσθαι χρόνον καὶ πλείστης ἀναπλησθῆναι κακοδοξίας,	and such as thenceforth branded him with infamy, overwhelming him with deserved reproach,
ἀφανισθῆναι δὲ τὰ ἀσεβῆ αὐτοῦ συγγράμματα·	his impious writings also having been destroyed;

κακοδοξίας
noun sg fem gen
κακοδοξ-ία , ἡ,
A.bad repute, X.Ap.31, Pl.R.361c.
II. heretical opinion, Just.Nov.109Praef.

A PDF with the Uncode Greek text is here, page 14.

DCH (on union mandated mid-morning break)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

In a letter c.325 CE Constantine stated that Porphyry "fully and insatiably used base fame". (See the letter in full below). The sources for this letter are given as:

(1) Socrates Scholasticus’ Ecclesiastical History 1:9 and also

(2) a translation of a Syriac translation of this, written in 501, is in B. H. Cowper’s, Syriac Miscellanies, Extracts From The Syriac Ms. No. 14528 In The British Museum, Lond. 1861, p. 6– 7).

Can anyone advise whether this letter in its original Greek form is available anywhere online and/or what is the Greek term that has been translated into the English as "base fame"?

SOURCE

Quote:

(325AD) Letter of Constantine to the churches.

Synopsis: Against Arius and the Porphyrians, and threatens that any one who conceals a work of Arius shall be punished with death.

Constantine the King to the Bishops and nations everywhere.

Inasmuch as Arius imitates the evil and the wicked, it is right that, like them, he should be rebuked and rejected. As therefore Porphyry, who was an enemy of the fear of God, and wrote wicked and unlawful writings against the religion of Christians, found the reward which befitted him, that he might be a reproach to all generations after, because he fully and insatiably used base fame; so that on this account his writings were righteously destroyed; thus also now it seems good that Arius and the holders of his opinion should all be called Porphyrians, that he may be named by the name of those whose evil ways he imitates: And not only this, but also that all the writings of Arius, wherever they be found, shall be delivered to be burned with fire, in order that not only his wicked and evil doctrine may be destroyed, but also that the memory of himself and of his doctrine may be blotted out, that there may not by any means remain to him remembrance in the world. Now this also I ordain, that if any one shall be found secreting any writing composed by Arius, and shall not forthwith deliver up and burn it with fire, his punishment shall be death; for as soon as he is caught in this he shall suffer capital punishment by beheading without delay.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-23-2013, 11:29 PM	#2
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	I think I have found a greek translation. The following is from Migne - Patrologia Graeca et Cetera Graeca Scripta for Ecclesiastica Hstoria 1 (Hussey Editore) .... Can anyone point out the Greek term translated as "base fame"? εὐδαιμονία \| eudaimonia

07-24-2013, 02:09 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The word kakodoxias jumps out at me, but it means bad belief, not base fame.

07-24-2013, 02:16 PM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	How about the common European term kaka which perfectly describes this line of inquiry

07-25-2013, 01:35 AM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	"Base fame" - bad reputation. I don't get the connection between this and whether Arius wrote books (or codices) But I see that Jeffrey asked for the Syriac behind "base fame" as well as "writings" on that other thread.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.