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Old 07-29-2013, 11:07 AM   #1
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Default Maurice Casey on the Historical Jesus, Mythicist Myths?

About Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths?

Published: 16-01-2014

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Did Jesus exist? In recent years there has been a massive upsurge in public discussion of the view that Jesus did not exist. This view first found a voice in the 19th century, when Christian views were no longer taken for granted. Some way into the 20th century, this school of thought was largely thought to have been utterly refuted by the results of respectable critical scholarship (from both secular and religious scholars).

Now, many unprofessional scholars and bloggers ('mythicists'), are gaining an increasingly large following for a view many think to be unsupportable. It is starting to influence the academy, more than that it is starting to influence the views of the public about a crucial historical figure. Maurice Casey, one of the most important Historical Jesus scholars of his generation takes the 'mythicists' to task in this landmark publication. Casey argues neither from a religious respective, nor from that of a committed atheist. Rather he seeks to provide a clear view of what can be said about Jesus, and of what can't.
Table Of Contents

Preface
Abbreviations
1. Introduction
2. Historical Method
3. The Date and Reliability of the Canonical Gospels
4. What is Not in the Gospels, or Not in ‘Q’
5. What is Not in the Epistles, Especially Those of Paul
6. What is Written in the Epistles, Especially Those of Paul
7. It All Happened Before, in Egypt, India, or Wherever you Fancy, but there was Nowhere for it to Happen in Israel
8. Conclusions
Appendix: Latinisms
At least one blogger thinks that this will be the death knell for mythicism, but the emotional tone of this would hardly be necessary if the case were so clear.
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:26 AM   #2
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People are crazy.
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:56 AM   #3
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Appendix: Latinisms
Hurrah!
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:11 PM   #4
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Appendix: Latinisms
Hurrah!
I found blogger Maurice Casey's original venture into the slaying of mythicists quite a hoot: It can be found at http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com...maurice-casey/ I seem to recall that he faulted me for using hyperlinks to reference sources in my blogposts instead of writing out citations in full academic style, and for (shock, horror) making an argument that he had never heard before. He also took particular exception to the blogging forum itself. If you were a blogger you were, by definition, shallow and false. I could not resist pointing to the obvious - that Casey was himself responding as a blogger!

I was really quite surprised that he seemed to think it worth his time to try to respond to several posts of mine on Vridar, and I would not be at all surprised if his Latinisms appendix is a continuation of one of those responses.

The original post to which he responded is Roll over Maurice Casey: Latin, Not Aramaic, Explains Mark's Bad Greek. My response to this, along with his other criticism, is at Concluding Response of Blogger Neil Godfrey to Blogger Maurice Casey.

Maurice Casey showed in his earlier book, Jesus of Nazareth, that he loves to psychoanalyze atheists and mythicists generally. If an atheist expresses the slightest criticism of anything religious he or she is a bigot, in Casey's eyes. He stereotypes, mind-reads and generally tears apart the character of mythicists. I was even condemned as a heartless monster for displaying a photo of thousands of books scattered on a library floor as the result of a New Zealand earthquake (one that did not, mercifully, cause mass casualties as a later quake did) and making some flippant comment as a librarian myself. Casey immediately threw this back at me as if I was making a joke of mass casualty victims. Atheist mythicists are such evil monsters.

I fully expect more of the same in this new book.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:03 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Toto View Post
About Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths?

Published: 16-01-2014

Quote:

Did Jesus exist? In recent years there has been a massive upsurge in public discussion of the view that Jesus did not exist. This view first found a voice in the 19th century, when Christian views were no longer taken for granted. Some way into the 20th century, this school of thought was largely thought to have been utterly refuted by the results of respectable critical scholarship (from both secular and religious scholars).

Now, many unprofessional scholars and bloggers ('mythicists'), are gaining an increasingly large following for a view many think to be unsupportable. It is starting to influence the academy, more than that it is starting to influence the views of the public about a crucial historical figure. Maurice Casey, one of the most important Historical Jesus scholars of his generation takes the 'mythicists' to task in this landmark publication. Casey argues neither from a religious respective, nor from that of a committed atheist. Rather he seeks to provide a clear view of what can be said about Jesus, and of what can't.
Table Of Contents

Preface
Abbreviations
1. Introduction
2. Historical Method
3. The Date and Reliability of the Canonical Gospels
4. What is Not in the Gospels, or Not in ‘Q’
5. What is Not in the Epistles, Especially Those of Paul
6. What is Written in the Epistles, Especially Those of Paul
7. It All Happened Before, in Egypt, India, or Wherever you Fancy, but there was Nowhere for it to Happen in Israel
8. Conclusions
Appendix: Latinisms
At least one blogger thinks that this will be the death knell for mythicism, but the emotional tone of this would hardly be necessary if the case were so clear.
Schweitzer could find no historical Jesus. Was he incorrect?
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilgodfrey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjalti View Post
Hurrah!
I found blogger Maurice Casey's original venture into the slaying of mythicists quite a hoot: It can be found at http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com...maurice-casey/ I seem to recall that he faulted me for using hyperlinks to reference sources in my blogposts instead of writing out citations in full academic style, and for (shock, horror) making an argument that he had never heard before. He also took particular exception to the blogging forum itself. If you were a blogger you were, by definition, shallow and false. I could not resist pointing to the obvious - that Casey was himself responding as a blogger!

I was really quite surprised that he seemed to think it worth his time to try to respond to several posts of mine on Vridar, and I would not be at all surprised if his Latinisms appendix is a continuation of one of those responses.

The original post to which he responded is Roll over Maurice Casey: Latin, Not Aramaic, Explains Mark's Bad Greek. My response to this, along with his other criticism, is at Concluding Response of Blogger Neil Godfrey to Blogger Maurice Casey.

Maurice Casey showed in his earlier book, Jesus of Nazareth, that he loves to psychoanalyze atheists and mythicists generally. If an atheist expresses the slightest criticism of anything religious he or she is a bigot, in Casey's eyes. He stereotypes, mind-reads and generally tears apart the character of mythicists. I was even condemned as a heartless monster for displaying a photo of thousands of books scattered on a library floor as the result of a New Zealand earthquake (one that did not, mercifully, cause mass casualties as a later quake did) and making some flippant comment as a librarian myself. Casey immediately threw this back at me as if I was making a joke of mass casualty victims. Atheist mythicists are such evil monsters.

I fully expect more of the same in this new book.
Don't forget Casey's reference to the famous statement by the blogger/librarian Godfrey that he never touches, let alone reads, a book.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:35 PM   #7
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I was even condemned as a heartless monster for displaying a photo of thousands of books scattered on a library floor as the result of a New Zealand earthquake (one that did not, mercifully, cause mass casualties as a later quake did) and making some flippant comment as a librarian myself.
perhaps posting the photo of the books scattered on a library floor caused the second quake?? :devil:
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:55 PM   #8
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I believe Casey argues that Latinisms in Mark prove that it came from an Aramaic source.

See his Jesus of Nazareth, page 341, where Casey argues that speakers of Aramaic sometimes had to use Latinisms, and so the prescence of Latinisms in Mark shows there must have been Latinisms in Mark's Aramaic source.

Casey has never seen this Aramaic source that Mark used, but he can translate it better than anybody who ever lived, better than people who actually had it in their hands and saw it.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:00 AM   #9
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I found blogger Maurice Casey's original venture into the slaying of mythicists quite a hoot: It can be found at http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com...maurice-casey/
Casey slated me for a statement that I corrected literally one minute after I originally posted it!

Maurice is a crank. As far as I can tell, his groundbreaking work on reconstructing the Aramaic originals of Greek works is just ignored by professionals working in that field.


They lack Casey's psychic powers of translating manuscripts he has never seen.

I asked Stephanie Louise Fisher many times to tell me the track record of Casey in reconstructing the Aramaic originals of Greek documents.

She could not name a single document Casey had got right. Not one.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:19 AM   #10
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It is illuminating to read what Edward Cook, a well respected Aramaicist and DSS scholar, had to say about aspects of Casey's work here and here.
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