Duvduv

MM, I am not sure I understand the argument that the "Christians" preserved writings of Josephus that had predated the existed of the "Christians" themselves by two or three centuries. There is just as much reason to reject the authenticity of the stories of "Josephus" as there is the stories of the NT.

semiopen

After re-reading your OP I realize I have done you an injustice my friend -

You did actually identify the tracate in the Talmud you were concerned with.

My replies have discussed whether the Talmudic account is accurate and whether Josephus could have copied them.

I think I have conclusively demonstrated that this tractate is not historically accurate. At best Yohanan may have met Vespasian at some point, but the actual story is too ridiculous to accept anything else as fact.

I have also shown that Vespasian liked to be told he would be emperor, and this was apparently well known to all Judeans.

Despite the fact that Josephus wrote things that weren't true, his story makes sense. I'm assuming that he did command the troops at Yodfat, and as the commander he would have gotten an audience with Vespasian. If we accept this, his "prediction" is easy to understand. He had to have been thinking he might be killed or worse.

As I mentioned, it's possible I'm mistaken about the facts but I think this is pretty solid, as is the fact that Vespasian became his patron. If something is amiss with my scenario, I'd welcome a more informed view - I make too many mistakes to fall in love with my opinions.

I've mentioned many times that you should be banned but actually you do start what to me are very interesting threads. It's your commentary afterwards that is strange..., maybe it all balances out.

Duvduv

Semiopen, you and I and everybody else are all entitled to our interpretations and opinions. Your opinion of the Talmud story is your opinion, to which you are entitled, although I disapprove of opinions rooted in argumentum ad hominem.
As far as Josephus is concerned, I continue to maintain that responsible scholars should give some thought to the authenticity of what is written under the name of Josephus, and to the authenticity of the existence of this person himself.

semiopen

Quite right about our different opinions.

However, I have not seen a single thing that you have written that would make us believe that Josephus was lying about the fact in question... even Zimmerman told the truth that he got out of his truck.

Regarding the Talmud, the story says that Yohanan left Jerusalem and met with Vespasian the same night that Vespasian was notified about becoming emperor by the messenger from Rome. Based on the facts as I understand them this could not have happened. He was made emperor by his armies, not to mention the far fetched coincidences in the story.

It's possible that there is an alternate view of events but you haven't presented any credible evidence.

You would have to demonstrate -

A messenger was sent by Rome to inform Vespasian versus the army's proclamation
Vespasian was conceivably present near Jerusalem when the messenger arrived

http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Arco.html

Based on this, the Senate ratified the election of Vespasian after If there was a messenger from Rome, Vespasian already knew he was emperor. Certainly he wouldn't have threatened to kill Yohanan for addressing him as King.

Duvduv

I have made the point repeatedly. Inside a JEWISH CONTEXT of the period and thereafter there is not a single REFERENCE to someone named Yosef ben Matityahu who was either a general, a historian, a traitor, a hero, a rabbi, a priest or anything else. Period. The events he recounts of his military activity and of others, i.e. Masada are NOT REFERENCED anywhere in any traditional Jewish source at all. NONE. ZIPPO. NADA.
The writings of Josephus were never cited in 2000 years of Jewish writings as an authentic or reliable source about any events in the 1st century.

Therefore, there is good reason WITHIN THE INTERNAL JEWISH CONTEXT to assume that although some of the content of "his" writings may have originated early on, it has been embellished and changed so much that it is unknowable, and therefore this Mark Twain was a product of gentiles.

aa5874

You have NO GOOD reason to speculate about the writings of Josephus unless you are prepared to present credible sources. The Talmud story is not credible and not corroborated by Non-Jewish sources.

Josephus the Jew is acknowledged by many Non Jewish sources, even non-Apologetics.

Cassius Dio acknowledges Josephus as a Jew who was captured by Vespasian and documented his statement to Vespasian in "Roman History" who was in his presence.

Cassius Dio "Roman History" We have multiple sources of antiquity that corroborate Josephus but none that corroborated your Talmud story composed AFTER Josephus was already dead.

Duvduv

Good old Cassius Dio "corroborates" a guy named Josephus. How convenient.......take out the two words "named Josephus" (Josephus who, where, when why?), and what do you have left?!

What the hell is your definition of "corroborate" when you cannot even prove that a guy named Justin Martyr actually lived in the 2nd century, for heaven's sake?!

aa5874

You cannot prove that Josephus copied the Talmud story.

Take out the words "Yochanan Ben Zakkai" and what do you have left?
Now, tell us who corroborated your Talmud story with R. Yochanan Ben Zakkai?

mountainman

Hi Duvduv and aa5874.

The key word is "appear".

Appearances can be deceiving.





εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

aa5874

Please, tell that to Duvduv. He may not know what appears in the Talmud.