Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 08-15-2013, 09:38 PM

I have asked for the source(s) in Cassius Dio which mention Christians.

So far only Toto has responded with .....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s_Dio/73*.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dio Cassius

There was a certain Marcia, the mistress of Quadratus (one of the men slain at this time), and Eclectus, his cubicularius;3 the latter became the cubicularius of Commodus also, and the former, first the emperor's mistress and later the wife of Eclectus, 7 and she saw them also perish by violence. The tradition is that she greatly favoured the Christians and rendered them many kindnesses, inasmuch as she could do anything with Commodus.

This is taken from Book 73 and represents the work of an 11th century epitomist.

If readers now look at the earlier Book 72, which deals with the "Thundering Legion" rain miracle, then readers will see the problem.

Here we have the text from Book 72

Quote:

8 So Marcus subdued the Marcomani and the Iazyges after many hard struggles and dangers. A great war against the people called the Quadi also fell to his lot and it was his good fortune to win an unexpected victory, or rather it was vouchsafed him by Heaven. For when the Romans were in peril in the course of the battle, the divine power saved p29them in a most unexpected manner. The Quadi had surrounded them at a spot favourable for their purpose and the Romans were fighting valiantly with their shields locked together; then the barbarians ceased fighting, expecting to capture them easily as the result of the heat and their thirst. So they posted guards all about and hemmed them in to prevent their getting water anywhere; for the barbarians were far superior in numbers. The Romans, accordingly, were in a terrible plight from fatigue, wounds, the heat of the sun, and thirst, and so could neither fight nor retreat, but were standing and the line and at their several posts, scorched by the heat, when suddenly many clouds gathered and a mighty rain, not without divine interposition, burst upon them.

Indeed, there is a story to the effect that Arnuphis, an Egyptian magician, who was a companion of Marcus, had invoked by means of enchantments various deities and in particular Mercury, the god of the air, and by this means attracted the rain.

Richard Carrier deals with the "rain miracle" in Beckwith on Historiography (1999, 2005) and has this to say ...

Quote:

The Standard Historical Problems: the Rain Miracle

What about current historians? Consider the astonishing "rain miracle" which rescued the army of Marcus Aurelius in 172 A.D., complete with the enemy army being zapped to death by lightning balls hurtling from a clear sky, while the "good guys" were at the same time rescued from a desperate thirst when clouds gathered and sent down a torrential rain, despite a long period of summer drought. Everyone claimed responsibility, from advocates of the god Jupiter, to proponents of Neoplatonic magic-working, to, of course, Christians. It even appears on the column of Marcus Aurelius, where some rain god is seen sweeping across the battlefield, toppling the enemy while filling the Roman soldiers' shields with life-giving water (a clear depiction of lightning striking the enemy appears in a different but related scene, which has been badly damaged by weathering).

Garth Fowden skillfully reviews how these stories changed over time, and how the Christian version won not because it was true, but simply because its proponents won the ensuing propaganda war, a lesson that is instructive in itself.[4] The successful use of propaganda by Christians, especially in the exploitation of miracle stories, is also demonstrated by Thomas Matthews in his excellent book The Clash of the Gods: A Reinterpretation of Early Christian Art (1993), and analyzed by Rodney Stark in his recent book The Rise of Christianity (1997). Stories were told, and images carved, in order to sell the faith. Truth is an easy casualty in this process.

But there are other lessons here. About eight years later, the Christian apologist Apollinarius began to recount the Christian version as if its truth were a certainty,[5] even though there are demonstrable factual errors in his account, including one hallmark of rumor-built legend: the claim that the Roman legion called "Fulminata" ("Thundering") was so-named because of this very event, to honor the all-Christian unit for having gained the aid of their god. Of course, the very notion that an entire legion, whose men had to worship Jupiter Optimus Maximus, could be composed entirely of Christians under an intolerant Emperor,[6] and at so early a date, is absurd. But one other thing is certain: the legion named "Fulminata" had already been so-named since the time of Augustus over a century before. This proves that lies could spread, and be believed, very quickly--even in the very same generation. This should not surprise us. There were no newspapers, and what few records of any kind that existed were off limits to the masses, who had neither the social savvy nor the requisite literacy to access them, even if they had the desire to. And we see that lies can win out: Eusebius, writing in the early 300's, believes Apollinarius' story is true, and includes it in his definitive world chronicle [7].

Tertullian, writing only 25 years after the actual event, also thought the Christians were credited,[8] even though it is dubious that there even could have been Christians in the army at that time, whereas Marcus Aurelius himself dedicated a statue in honor of the event to Jupiter Lightning-maker,[9] and issued coinage celebrating "the emperor's religion," with the aid of Egyptian magic (see below), hardly a tip of the hat to Christians. On the other hand, pagans had their own wild stories, believed with equal gusto.

Cassius Dio, writing about half a century later (about the same time that passed between the death of Christ and the writing of the first gospels), tells us that an Egyptian sorcerer named Harnouphis had summoned Hermes (the equivalent of Thoth) and, using this divine aid, saved the day.[10]

This story has material evidence in its support: an inscription attests to such a man traveling with the army at the time, and coins after the battle honor the "Religion of the Emperor" in connection with Hermes (Mercury) standing in an Egyptian temple

So how is the "Rain Miracle" reported in the Cassius Dio text (translation and manuscript version) referred to in Toto' link?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto's link to Cassius Dio and the rain miracle (continued)...

9 This is what Dio says about the matter, [5] but he is apparently in error, whether intentionally or otherwise; and yet I am inclined to believe his error was chiefly intentional. It surely must be so, for he was not ignorant of the division of soldiers that bore the special name of the "Thundering" Legion, — indeed he mentions it in the list along with the others,6 — a title which was given it for no other reason (for no other is reported) than because of the incident that p31occurred in this very war. It was precisely this incident that saved the Romans on this occasion and brought destruction upon the barbarians, and not Arnuphis, the magician; for Marcus is not reported to have taken pleasure in the company of magicians or in witchcraft. Now the incident I have reference to is this: Marcus had a division of soldiers (the Romans call a division a legion) from Melitene; and these people are all worshippers of Christ. Now it is stated that in this battle, when Marcus found himself at a loss what to do in the circumstances and feared for his whole army, the prefect approached him and told him that those who are called Christians can accomplish anything whatever by their prayers and that in the army there chanced to be a whole division of this sect. Marcus on hearing this appealed to them to pray to their God; and when they had prayed, their God immediately gave ear and smote the enemy with a thunderbolt and comforted the Romans with a shower of rain. Marcus was greatly astonished at this and not only honoured the Christians by an official decree but also named the legion the "thundering" Legion. It is also reported that there is a letter of Marcus extant on the subject. But the Greeks, though they know that the division was called the "Thundering" Legion and themselves bear witness to the fact, nevertheless make no statement whatever about the reason for its name.

Footnote [5]: This paragraph, it will be observed, is simply Xiphilinus' own comment on Dio's narrative.

So can everyone see that although Cassius Dio firstly mentions the Neoplatonic magic-working calling down the water in the rain miracle, the story is again repeated by the Epitomater Xiphilinus who includes the Christian version taken from Tertullian and/or Apollinarius.

Therefore it should be clear for all and sundry here that what appears to be Christian references in Book 72 of Cassius Dio with the rain miracle and the thundering legion legend, these Christian references have been introduced by the 1th century Christian epitomator Xiphilinus as it mentioned as footnote [5]

Is this common knowledge ???

Stephan huller is an excellent provider of funny pictures but when he is asked to substantiate whether of not Cassius Dio mentions Christians he absolutely no idea of the manuscript sources.

It is evident with this "rain miracle" example in Book 72 that the Christian who made the epitome of Cassius Dio's account simply added the Christian version of the story.

Any questions so far?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Toto · 08-15-2013, 10:24 PM

But in your example, Xiphilinus makes it clear that he thinks Dio is in error, and he provides his Christian version as a correction.

The reference to Marcia is not listed as a correction.

When you find Christian interpolations, there is usually a clear motive and pattern: miracles happen, or virgins are martyred, or high status philosophers or statemen admire Christians. Marcia is far from a virgin, provides non-supernatural aid to some Christians, but otherwise engages in the same sexual immorality and criminal-like behavior that went on in the imperial court.

I wouldn't want to try to prove the existence of Marcia on this sort of evidence, but it doesn't look like Christians altered this reference.

mountainman · 08-15-2013, 10:24 PM

I appear to have demonstrated in the above post that the Christian version of the "Thundering Legion Rain Miracle" was introduced into book 72 of Cassius Dio's history by his 11th century Christian epitomator Xiphilinus.

The 11th century Christian scribe could not help himself but to add a Christianized version of Dio's account to his epitome of Dio's history. This happened seven centuries after Nicaea.

This is not a conspiracy as such, after all the Christian scribe was just correcting Cassius Dio's assertion that the rain miracle was wrought by a Neoplatonic magic-working. The Christian scribe knew differently, and cited the text of either Tertullian and/or Apollinarius as a reproof.

And thus "Voila!!!" To the unsuspecting "common knowedge" Cassius Dio appears to be making reference to Christians.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It seems to me that it all did not have to be produced or come into being at the same time in the offices of Eusebius and Constantine. If it started with them early on, it could continue over the next century, and then of course among the scribes over the following centuries.

In fact there is no way of even knowing what "Eusebius" actually wrote any more than it is possible of knowing what "Josephus" actually wrote. The entire religion of the regime was in the hands of a relatively small number of literati, i.e. the clergy who possessed and distributed manuscripts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

I suppose it depends what one refers to by "conspiracy"? By definition, it refers to any collusions among parties to effect something illegal or nefarious. Did the American colonists conspire to declare independence from the king of England and establish self rule? Yes. Did they conspire to deceive people about their intention in order to gain and consolidate power? I doubt it.

When someone says that Constantine "conspired" with Eusebius and perhaps others to fabricate from pretty much whole cloth an entire religion, including all of its literature in a multitude of languages and styles, for the purpose of aggrandizing his power by using it to control the ignorant masses who yearn for salvation from their miserable lives if imperial oppression, they mean he conspired to nefariously pull the wool over the eyes of his subjects.

Sure it might be possible in theory, but the degree of collusion between parties that the theory would require (e.g., Eusebius could probably not have written all of the Christian literature alone) is staggering. We'd also have to assume that the common people were mere sheep waiting to be led to slaughter, and would eat up this literature without question. Even when the winner re-writes history, the winner cannot cover up every trace of the deception. Not every elite, especially among the pagans, would be so quick to jump into bed with "Con" Constantine and not leave a trace of their resistance in literature or archeological remains.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Why is the idea that Christianity emerged in the fourth century under the sponsorship of the new regime a "conspiracy"? Was the establishment of the United States with its official constitution in 1789 a "conspiracy"?

mountainman · 08-15-2013, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

But in your example, Xiphilinus makes it clear that he thinks Dio is in error, and he provides his Christian version as a correction.

Will you at least agree with the following points:

(1) Some of the later books of "Cassius Dio's Roman History" are in fact not the output of Cassius Dio but the output of [Christian] epitomes of the 11th and 12th century.

(2) On at least one occasion the Christian epitomator has introduced Christian references into Cassius Dio's history.

Thanks.

Quote:

The reference to Marcia is not listed as a correction.

We will return to this reference.

Quote:

When you find Christian interpolations, there is usually a clear motive and pattern: miracles happen, or virgins are martyred, or high status philosophers or statemen admire Christians.

Here is the known and acknowledged Christian reference interpolation into the books of Marcus Aurelius .....

Marcus Aurelius Antoninus' reference to "christian obstinacy" (circa 167 CE) is located at Meditations, 11:3. Here is George Long's English translation:

"What a soul that is which is ready, if at any moment it must be separated from the body, and ready either to be extinguished or dispersed or continue to exist; but so that this readiness comes from a man's own judgement, not from mere obstinacy, as with the Christians, but considerately and with dignity and in a way to persuade another, without tragic show."

There is no admiration here, yet this reference has been interpolated.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 08-16-2013, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Marcia is far from a virgin, provides non-supernatural aid to some Christians, but otherwise engages in the same sexual immorality and criminal-like behavior that went on in the imperial court.

I wouldn't want to try to prove the existence of Marcia on this sort of evidence, but it doesn't look like Christians altered this reference.

The issue does not relate to the existence of Marcia, who probably existed.

For example the original work could have read "Jews" instead of "Christians" as follows:

Quote:

There was a certain Marcia, the mistress of Quadratus (one of the men slain at this time), and Eclectus, his cubicularius;3 the latter became the cubicularius of Commodus also, and the former, first the emperor's mistress and later the wife of Eclectus, 7 and she saw them also perish by violence. The tradition is that she greatly favoured the Jews Christians and rendered them many kindnesses, inasmuch as she could do anything with Commodus.

In any event, it must be clearly acknowledge that the text here is taken from an 11th century epitome of Cassius Dio.

You also need to address the Salempress article:

Dio Cassius - Greek-Roman Historian

Quote:

While emphasizing politics, Dio took a great deal of interest in the religions of the empire. When discussing Pompey's capture of Jerusalem in 63 B.C.E., for instance, he included a rather long digression about the Jewish religion.

Dio's writings never mentioned Christianity .......

Do you think SalemPress made a mistake?

Where is the academic work on the manuscripts of Cassius Dio and the supposed Christian reference(s)?

I have cited Salempress above.

Do we find anyone stating that Cassius Dio mentions Christians?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Toto · 08-16-2013, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

But in your example, Xiphilinus makes it clear that he thinks Dio is in error, and he provides his Christian version as a correction.

Will you at least agree with the following points:

(1) Some of the later books of "Cassius Dio's Roman History" are in fact not the output of Cassius Dio but the output of [Christian] epitomes of the 11th and 12th century.
(2) On at least one occasion the Christian epitomator has introduced Christian references into Cassius Dio's history. ...

This is misleading. The Christian references are not presented as the words of Cassius Dio, but clearly as a comment from the later editor. No one thinks that Dio Cassius referred to Christians in the section on the Thundering Legion Rain Miracle. The Christian commentators know that he had a pagan explanation for the miracle.

Quote:

...

Quote:

When you find Christian interpolations, there is usually a clear motive and pattern: miracles happen, or virgins are martyred, or high status philosophers or statemen admire Christians.

Here is the known and acknowledged Christian reference interpolation into the books of Marcus Aurelius .....

Marcus Aurelius Antoninus' reference to "christian obstinacy" (circa 167 CE) is located at Meditations, 11:3. Here is George Long's English translation:

"What a soul that is which is ready, if at any moment it must be separated from the body, and ready either to be extinguished or dispersed or continue to exist; but so that this readiness comes from a man's own judgement, not from mere obstinacy, as with the Christians, but considerately and with dignity and in a way to persuade another, without tragic show."

There is no admiration here, yet this reference has been interpolated.

The scholarly judgment that this phrase was a marginal note copied into the text is based on it's ungrammatical and illogical construction. It is not even clear that this interpolation was a Christian interpolation.

This is not at all similar to the reference to Marcia.

mountainman · 08-16-2013, 12:21 AM

Will you at least agree that some/most (61-80??) of the later books of "Cassius Dio's Roman History" are in fact not the output of Cassius Dio but the output of [Christian] epitomes of the 11th and 12th century.

Do you think SalemPress made a mistake when they wrote (see above) that Dio's writings never mentioned Christianity ?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Toto · 08-16-2013, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Will you at least agree that some/most (61-80??) of the later books of "Cassius Dio's Roman History" are in fact not the output of Cassius Dio but the output of [Christian] epitomes of the 11th and 12th century....

Of course, but it appears that the epitomizers made a distinction between what they read and what they inserted.

:huh:

These documents would not be admissible in a court of law, but what basis do you have for judging that the reference to Marcia in relation to Christians was a later interpolation?

mountainman · 08-16-2013, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

.... what basis do you have for judging that the reference to Marcia in relation to Christians was a later interpolation?

(1) Salempress article states that Dio took a great deal of interest in religions but does not deal with Christianity. It would be therefore out of character for his to mentions Christianity just once in such an offhand manner. It nmakes more sense that someone changed the reference as follows:

The tradition is that she greatly favoured the Jews Christians and rendered them many kindnesses..

Dio Cassius - Greek-Roman Historian

Quote:

While emphasizing politics, Dio took a great deal of interest in the religions of the empire. When discussing Pompey's capture of Jerusalem in 63 B.C.E., for instance, he included a rather long digression about the Jewish religion.

Dio's writings never mentioned Christianity .......

(2) We should be examining what academics have written on this subject.

I am checking through JSTOR.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Toto · 08-16-2013, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

.... what basis do you have for judging that the reference to Marcia in relation to Christians was a later interpolation?

(1) Salempress article states that Dio took a great deal of interest in religions but does not deal with Christianity. It would be therefore out of character for his to mentions Christianity just once in such an offhand manner. It nmakes more sense that someone changed the reference as follows:...

No, that doesn't make sense. It looks like an ad hoc attempt to support your theory that Christianity dates from the 4th century.

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08-15-2013, 10:24 PM	#32
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	But in your example, Xiphilinus makes it clear that he thinks Dio is in error, and he provides his Christian version as a correction. The reference to Marcia is not listed as a correction. When you find Christian interpolations, there is usually a clear motive and pattern: miracles happen, or virgins are martyred, or high status philosophers or statemen admire Christians. Marcia is far from a virgin, provides non-supernatural aid to some Christians, but otherwise engages in the same sexual immorality and criminal-like behavior that went on in the imperial court. I wouldn't want to try to prove the existence of Marcia on this sort of evidence, but it doesn't look like Christians altered this reference.

08-16-2013, 12:21 AM	#37
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Will you at least agree that some/most (61-80??) of the later books of "Cassius Dio's Roman History" are in fact not the output of Cassius Dio but the output of [Christian] epitomes of the 11th and 12th century. Do you think SalemPress made a mistake when they wrote (see above) that Dio's writings never mentioned Christianity ? εὐδαιμονία \| eudaimonia

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