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Old 06-24-2013, 04:16 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post
My French is reasonable. Here's a translation ......

[trimmed]


De Rossi, in his learned commentary on the Christian inscriptions of Carthage (Spicileg. Solmense, IV, p. 523, 530) places it in the first rank of symbols which, before the 4th century, were used by Christians to conceal the cult of the Cross; he has collected very numerous examples from the catacombs, traces on funerary marbles, on the lime which seals tombs, and on the walls of sepulchral chambers. Was it the same in the East? There is no direct proof to authorise us to say so, but the answer is obviously yes. So far no Christian catacomb before the 4th century, no Christian monument definitely authentic erected before the peace of the church, has been discovered so far in Syria.............

Have faith in the papal archaeologist de Rossi.





εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:56 PM   #22
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Roger,

You, beat me to the punch. Using Google Translate I get this:

לבריך שמה לעלמא עבד שלמן בר נשא בר
One whose name is forever praised. Made by Shlomo, son of Nesa, son of
צידא ברק על חיוהי וחיי בנוהי
Tsaïda, son of Barak, for his salvation/health and that of their children.
X בירח ניסן שנח 447 X
In the month of Nisan Year 447 (April 135).
   
   
Les noms propres contenus dans cette inscription ne renferment dans leur composition le nom d’aucune divinité païenne; rien ne s’oppose donc à ce qu’ils aient appartenu à des Juifs. Shareholders contained in this entry names contain in their composition the name of any pagan deity, there is thus no reason why they belonged to Jews.
pacificus, et ברק, fulmen, se trouvent dans la Bible; נשא, sustulit (Deus) n’y est pas, mais les noms composés de même sont innombrables; la forme משא [munus Dei) existe (Gen., XXV, 14, I Par., I, 30). J’en dirai autant de צידא, venatio ou venator, qui peut avoir été porté par un Juif du deuxième siècle. pacificus and ברק, fulmen be found in the Bible; נשא, sustulit (Deus) is not there, but the compounds of the same names are countless משא the form [Dei munus) are (Gen. XXV, 14, I Par., I, 30). I say the same of צידא, venatio or venator, which may have been worn by a Jew of the second century.
Il n’est donc pas impossible que les auteurs de l'inscription et du monument aient fait partie de !’émigration juive établie à Palmyre. It is therefore not impossible that the authors of the inscription and the monument were part of! Jewish emigration established in Palmyra.
Cela étant, j’appellerai l'attention sur les deux X qui encadrent la date finale. Ce ne sont pas des signes de ponctuation; ce rôle est ordinairement joué, quand il est rempli, par des feuilles de lierre; notre inscription en offre précisément un exemple à la fin de la deuxième ligne. Il serait impossible, je crois, de citer une inscription grecque de Syrie dans laquelle le X soit employé à cet usage; le recueil de M. Waddington, le plus complet qui existe, n'en contient pas un seul exemple. Quant aux inscriptions sémitiques découvertes jusqu'à présent, elles ne le renferment pas davantage; on peut s’en assurer en feuilletant les pages du présent volume. However, I will call attention to the two X governing the final date. It is not punctuation, this role is usually played when it is filled with ivy leaves,(1) our entry precisely is an example at the end of the second line. It would be impossible, I think, to quote a Greek inscription from Syria in which X is used for this purpose, the collection of Mr. Waddington, who is the most complete, does not contain a single example. As the Semitic inscriptions found so far, they do not contain more, we can ensure flipping through the pages of this volume.
Quelle est donc la signification de ce signe ou plutôt de ce symbole? So what is the significance of this sign or rather this symbol?
Si nous nous transportons en Occident, la réponse est facile : la lettre X, à cause de sa double qualité de cruciforme et d’initiale du nom de Χριστός, y a été employée de très-bonne heure comme symbole chrétien. If we ship to the West, the answer is easy: the letter X, because of his dual capacity as Phillips and name initial Χριστός, are been used for very early as a Christian symbol.
M. de Kossi, dans son savant commentaire sur les inscrip-tions chrétiennes de Cartilage (Spiciley. So/esmeme, IV, p. 023, 030), la met en première ligne parmi les signes qui, avant le quatrième siècle, ont servi aux chrétiens à dissimuler le culte de la croix ; Mr. Kossi, in his learned commentary on the Christian inscriptions of Carthage (Spiciley. So / esmeme, IV, p. 023, 030) puts it at the forefront among the signs that before the fourth century, served Christians to conceal the cult of the cross,
il en a recueilli des exemples très-nombreux dans les catacombes, tracés sur les marbres funéraires, sur la chaux qui scellait les tombes, sur les parois des chambres sépul-craies. he collected very many examples in the catacombs, the burial plots of marbles on the plaster that sealed the tombs on the chamber walls Sepul-chalks.
En fut-il de même en Orient? In it was the same in the East?
Aucune preuve directe ne nous autorise encore à l’af-firmer, mais il est moralement évident que oui. No direct evidence yet allows us to af-firm, but it is morally obvious yes.
Aucune catacombe chrétienne antérieure au quatrième siècle, aucun monument chrétien bien authentique élevé avant la paix de l'Église, n’ont été découverts jusqu'à présent en Syrie; No Christian catacomb before the fourth century, although no authentic Christian monument raised before the peace of the Church, have been discovered so far in Syria,
il n’est donc pas étonnant que les arguments matériels manquent; mais l'induction nous fournit des données positives : it is not surprising that lack physical arguments, but the induction provides us with positive data:
toute l’histoire de l'Eglise primitive est là pour nous montrer un courant permanent d’Orient en Occident, pour nous faire voir dans les coutumes orientales, et particulièrement dans l’usage de la lan-gue grecque, l’origine des titres, des formules, des symboles chrétiens. the history of the early church is there to show us a continuous current from east to west, to show us in the Eastern customs, and particularly in the use of language Greek, the original titles, formulas, Christian symbols.
Il est donc à peu près certain que 1 emploi d’un signe ou d’un symbole en Occident a été précédé par l’emploi du même signe ou du même symbole en Orient. It is almost certain that one use of a sign or symbol in the West was preceded by the use of the same sign or same symbol in the East.
Après Constantin, cette antériorité ressort de l’é-tude même des formules épigraphiques; les formes données à la croix, au début ou à la fin des inscriptions grecques de Syrie, sont en avance sur l’épigraphie latine. After Constantine, the anticipation of spring e-tude even epigraphic formulas forms data on the cross at the beginning or the end of the Greek inscriptions of Syria, are ahead of Latin epigraphy.
Ce fait, déjà signalé par M. de Rossi, est pleinement mis en lumière par la publication simultanée des inscriptions et des monuments chrétiens de la Syrie centrale. This fact, already mentioned by Mr. Rossi is fully revealed by the simultaneous publication of the Christian inscriptions and monuments of central Syria.
Ainsi, nul doute pour nous que le X n’ait été de très-bonne heure employé en Syrie comme symbole chrétien; nous le trouvons sur les premiers monuments élevés après le triomphe de réglise, soit isolé, comme à Chaqqa *, soit en monogramme avec le l, le P ou le ΜΓ, comme sur une foule d’édifices du quatrième siècle, trop nombreux pour être cités* Thus, no doubt for us that X has been used very early in Syria as a Christian symbol, we find the first buildings erected after the triumph of a king or isolated, as shaqqa * or a monogram with l, P or ΜΓ as a host of the fourth century buildings, too numerous to mention *.
Quant à ce dernier monogramme, ΧΜΓ, quelle que־ soit sa signification (sans doute Χρίστος Μιχατίλ Γαβριήλ), son caractère chrétien est évident; il est prouvé par les nombreux exemples que nous avons recueillis; On this last monogram, ΧΜΓ regardless what is its meaning (probably Χρίστος Μιχατίλ Γαβριήλ), its Christian character is obvious, it is proved by the many examples we have collected,
or il se rencontre sur des monuments antérieurs au quatrième siècle, comme dans l'inscription du grand tombeau de Bassus à Chaqqa (Waddington, lnscr. syr., n° 2145), où rien d’ailleurs ne fait allusion aux dogmes du christianisme. or it occurs on historical monuments in the fourth century, as in the inscription of the great tomb of Bassus to shaqqa (Waddington, lnscr. syr., No. 2145), where there also alludes to the dogmas of Christianity.
Voici donc, en Syrie même, un exemple du X employé, avec d’au-1res lettres il est vrai, pour déguiser les croyances chrétiennes d’une famille, c’est-à-dire pour les révéler aux initiés, tout en les cachant aux indifférents ou aux persécuteurs. Here then, in Syria itself, an example of X employee with the letters BMO 1st-it is true, to disguise the Christian beliefs of a family, that is to say, to reveal to the initiated, while the hiding the indifferent or persecutors.
On peut en conclure que, même isolée, cette même lettre a été usitée avec un sens symbolique et caché, aussi bien en Syrie qu’à Rome ou à Carthago. We can conclude that even isolated, the same letter was usitée with a symbolic and hidden meanings, as well as in Syria or Rome Carthago.
De cette discussion il résulte que notre inscription peut être chrétienne. S'il se trouvait des chrétiens à Palmyre au deuxième siècle, ils faisaient certainement partie de la communauté juive; From this discussion it is clear that our entry may be Christian. If there were Christians in Palmyra in the second century, they were certainly part of the Jewish community,
les noms propres peuvent être juifs; le symbole final ne peut guère être que chré-tien, et quant aux formules religieuses, quoique empruntées au rituel local païen, elles sont parfaitement orthodoxes; proper names may be Jews, the ultimate symbol can hardly be that Christian, and about the religious formulas, though borrowed local pagan ritual, they are perfectly orthodox,
la première correspond presque mot pour mot à l'invocation SH nomen Domini benedictum, etc., et la seconde peut s’entendre aussi bien du salut éternel dans le sens chrétien, que de la santé du corps. he first corresponds almost word for word the invocation SH nomen Domini benedictum, etc., and the second can mean both the eternal salvation in the Christian sense, as health. body.
Toutes les probabilités sont donc en faveur du caractère chrétien de ce petit monument : c’est du moins mon opinion. All odds are in favor of the Christian character of this small monument: at least this is my opinion.
Si je réussis à la faire partager aux savants qui s’occupent d’épigraphie chrétienne, il en résultera que le petit autel de Palmyre sera le plus ancien monument chrétien connu élevé au grand jour, et portant le signe plus ou moins déguisé de la croix. If I can share with the scientists who are involved in Christian epigraphy, the result that the small altar of Palmyra is the oldest known Christian monument raised to the big day, and with the more or less disguised sign of the cross .

I did not try to fix the grammar or OCR errors.

DCH

1) If one looks at the photo showing inscription #76, you'll see an Ivy Leaf was indeed present at the left end of the middle line. I think this weakens his argument that the X's stand out as Christian symbols. I found two foreign language citations of this inscription in this volume (one French and one Spanish), but outside of Voobus nothing in English.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:29 AM   #23
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Roger,

You, beat me to the punch. Using Google Translate I get this:...

1) If one looks at the photo showing inscription #76, you'll see an Ivy Leaf was indeed present at the left end of the middle line. I think this weakens his argument that the X's stand out as Christian symbols. I found two foreign language citations of this inscription in this volume (one French and one Spanish), but outside of Voobus nothing in English.
Good stuff! Google translate for French is good (luckily I don't need it any more myself, having read too much of it down the years; wish the same was true for German).

Aha! I didn't see the image; it's at the back, I see.

I thought de Vogue's argument seemed rather sound and careful. I particularly liked how careful he was not to jump to conclusions. Note also how he didn't presume that something found in Syria must mean the same as something found elsewhere; he argued the case that, in this case it was.

He also was in no rush to assume that something was Christian (which is what one would expect from a researcher of that period). I think #74 could be Jewish, or Christian; and somewhere he added a note that another researcher was "far too optimistic" in assuming this sort of thing.

He doesn't presume that the X is a Christian symbol, and quite properly so. But here he thinks it is. I'm no epigraphist, so don't know. I suspect he is right, tho.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:22 AM   #24
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I was going to post this at Roger's blog but opted for here. Given that the inscription is in Aramaic the X is probably a tav. What it means is another open question.
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:35 AM   #25
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Tav

It does resemble a Phoenician tav, but not the Aramaic version.

I recall a thread some time ago in the archives where some source noted that there were lots of x's in inscriptions that had been interpreted as Christian symbols, but were really just carpenter's marks. It would take a while to locate it.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:48 PM   #26
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But Hebrews were aware that their tavs derived from x-shaped forms.

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Old 06-25-2013, 07:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Tav

It does resemble a Phoenician tav, but not the Aramaic version.

I recall a thread some time ago in the archives where some source noted that there were lots of x's in inscriptions that had been interpreted as Christian symbols, but were really just carpenter's marks. It would take a while to locate it.
I seem to recall that Aramaic inscriptions in Palmyra were often written in Phoenician script (essentially the same as Paleo-Hebrew script).

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Old 06-25-2013, 08:54 PM   #28
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FWIW there is a traditional Hebrew prayer for the dead that starts with the letter tav. Appears on many of the ancient grave stones. I'm sure duvduv or someone else can remember it word for word. Might be the answer.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:55 PM   #29
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Here it is:

Quote:
Usually the stone has the Jewish name of the deceased, the name of his/her father, and the Hebrew date of the passing away. Very often at the end you have the Hebrew letters "Tav", "Nun", "Tsade", "Bet" "Hey". Those letters are the first letters of 5 words in the sentence "Tihye Nishmato Tsrura Betsror Hahayim" (May his/her soul be bound to the chain of the livings). Above on the stone you have often the two Hebrew letters "Pey" and "Nun", first letters of the words "Po Nitman", (here is buried).http://www.schechter.edu/AskTheRabbi.aspx?ID=299
I think it is as plausible an explanation as the Christian identification.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:57 PM   #30
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And here in a more scholarly source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=K5n...ed=0CC0Q6AEwAA
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