Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steve Weiss · 07-26-2013, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Are both of you truly missing that "cross" in my "cross is essentially unanimous" functions as a euphemism for crucifixion?

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Since the sign of the cross is the symbol of Christianity and Jesus is always depicted as being nailed to one when the text, in fact, refers to a tree instead, one wonders how the confusion arose and why no one bothers to correct it. I have even seen some British high profile apologist voicing over cross when he quotes the very passage that refers to a tree. Not a peep from his followers about this denial of what is in plain sight.

Toto · 07-27-2013, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Are both of you truly missing that "cross" in my "cross is essentially unanimous" functions as a euphemism for crucifixion?

...

Since the sign of the cross is the symbol of Christianity and Jesus is always depicted as being nailed to one when the text, in fact, refers to a tree instead, one wonders how the confusion arose and why no one bothers to correct it. I have even seen some British high profile apologist voicing over cross when he quotes the very passage that refers to a tree. Not a peep from his followers about this denial of what is in plain sight.

What passage are you referring to?

The gospels refer to Jesus hung on a strauros, which is usually translated as cross or stake. There is a passing mention in Acts of an accusation against the Jews that they slew Jesus and hung him on a tree.

If you research this, you will find that this is a perpetual topic of discussion - the range of meanings for the words for tree, pole, stake, or cross. All are vertical pieces of wood.

Instrument of Jesus' crucifixion on wikipedia

Quote:

Greek xylon "piece of wood, tree"

In the Hebrew Bible Deuteronomy 21:23 states that "cursed of God is everyone who hangs on a tree." In the Septuagint this became epi xylon "upon a piece of wood," and usage for "hanging" (Joshua 8:29; 10:24), then passing into New Testament usage such as Peter's 3 uses of xylon (in English Bibles "tree") compared to Paul who only uses xylon "piece of wood" once.^{[39][40][41][42]}

In Greek texts the word xylon "piece of wood" could be used for any object made of wood, including in varying contexts, gallows, stocks, pales and stakes.^[43]

The Jehovah's Witnesses are quite sure that Jesus was hung on a stake, not what we would regard as a cross, and that this is an important issue. From here

Quote:

Though the Bible does not specifically describe the instrument that Jesus died upon, tradition has it that He was put to death on a cross, consisting of a stake and a crossbeam. While the Christian Church has never considered the exact method of Jesus' crucifixion or impalement as a major concern, the Watchtower has certainly made an issue of it. In doing so, they hold true to their pattern of majoring on the minors; often distracting their followers from more important issues.

The Watchtower considers the churches as "unclean" for using the symbol of the cross for the death of Jesus....

Up until the late 30's the Watchtower pictured Christ as dying on the traditional cross. However, while later eliminating the cross as well as the name of Jesus from their front cover, they continued to use a watch tower as their symbol. In the book Enemies, (1937), Watchtower President J.F. Rutherford attacked the traditional story of the cross as wrong because "the cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts long before the [birth] and death of Christ." (pp.188-189). ...

The current Society objections to the cross are:
1. The Biblical Greek doesn't suggest a cross, but rather a "pole" or "stake."
2. The cross was a pagan symbol later adopted by the "apostate" church.
3. Archaeology proves that Jesus died on an upright stake rather than a cross.
4. The cross is to be shunned rather than mentioned or displayed.

James The Least · 07-27-2013, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

Are both of you truly missing that "cross" in my "cross is essentially unanimous" functions as a euphemism for crucifixion?

...

Since the sign of the cross is the symbol of Christianity and Jesus is always depicted as being nailed to one when the text, in fact, refers to a tree instead, one wonders how the confusion arose and why no one bothers to correct it. I have even seen some British high profile apologist voicing over cross when he quotes the very passage that refers to a tree. Not a peep from his followers about this denial of what is in plain sight.

What passage are you referring to?

The gospels refer to Jesus hung on a strauros, which is usually translated as cross or stake. There is a passing mention in Acts of an accusation against the Jews that they slew Jesus and hung him on a tree.

If you research this, you will find that this is a perpetual topic of discussion - the range of meanings for the words for tree, pole, stake, or cross. All are vertical pieces of wood.

Instrument of Jesus' crucifixion on wikipedia

Quote:

Greek xylon "piece of wood, tree"

In the Hebrew Bible Deuteronomy 21:23 states that "cursed of God is everyone who hangs on a tree." In the Septuagint this became epi xylon "upon a piece of wood," and usage for "hanging" (Joshua 8:29; 10:24), then passing into New Testament usage such as Peter's 3 uses of xylon (in English Bibles "tree") compared to Paul who only uses xylon "piece of wood" once.^{[39][40][41][42]}

In Greek texts the word xylon "piece of wood" could be used for any object made of wood, including in varying contexts, gallows, stocks, pales and stakes.^[43]

The Jehovah's Witnesses are quite sure that Jesus was hung on a stake, not what we would regard as a cross, and that this is an important issue. From here

Quote:

Though the Bible does not specifically describe the instrument that Jesus died upon, tradition has it that He was put to death on a cross, consisting of a stake and a crossbeam. While the Christian Church has never considered the exact method of Jesus' crucifixion or impalement as a major concern, the Watchtower has certainly made an issue of it. In doing so, they hold true to their pattern of majoring on the minors; often distracting their followers from more important issues.

The Watchtower considers the churches as "unclean" for using the symbol of the cross for the death of Jesus....

Up until the late 30's the Watchtower pictured Christ as dying on the traditional cross. However, while later eliminating the cross as well as the name of Jesus from their front cover, they continued to use a watch tower as their symbol. In the book Enemies, (1937), Watchtower President J.F. Rutherford attacked the traditional story of the cross as wrong because "the cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts long before the [birth] and death of Christ." (pp.188-189). ...

The current Society objections to the cross are:
1. The Biblical Greek doesn't suggest a cross, but rather a "pole" or "stake."
2. The cross was a pagan symbol later adopted by the "apostate" church.
3. Archaeology proves that Jesus died on an upright stake rather than a cross.
4. The cross is to be shunned rather than mentioned or displayed.

I'd like to see the evidence that the Celts worshipped a cross long before Jesus. I suspect this is just a method for the JWs to distance themselves from other Christian groups and claim that they're the only "true" church.

Toto · 07-27-2013, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

...

I'd like to see the evidence that the Celts worshipped a cross long before Jesus. I suspect this is just a method for the JWs to distance themselves from other Christian groups and claim that they're the only "true" church.

The JW's appear to have picked up the idea from the history of religion ideas in the 19th century, which also inspired Acharya S and others.

There are some pictures here: http://idolpictures.tripod.com/idols/id6.html - but they don't look a lot like crosses.

There is some interesting commentary here by a Celtic artist: http://www.celtarts.com/celtic.htm

Quote:

The Irish Catholic priest will have no hesitation telling you that the circle of the Celtic Cross is a symbol of eternity that emphasizes the endlessness of God’s love as shown through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. That is unless he says the circle is a halo. He may go on to explain that the crucifixion is important not just as an event at a certain point in time but, as the circle symbolizes, as the unending mystery of how through the crucifixion and resurrection Christ continues to offer the hope of salvation to the faithful throughout all time.

At the pub when the subject comes up you might just as likely hear the explanation that the great stone Celtic Crosses were carved from the standing stones of the Druids and were originally phallic symbols, just carved into crosses to disguise their original purpose. No proof of this theory is offered and the in-your-face delivery of this information will probably intimidate you from asking for any. The barroom iconographer will swear on the graves of all his ancestors that it is true. With the rise of interest in the occult and pagan ideas in recent years you are likely to read New Age interpretations about how the cross in the circle is a symbol of the Sun that was worshipped by the Druids and that this symbol was appropriated by the Christians. Look for these sorts of explanations on the cards that accompany jewelry and head shop bric-a-brac. Born Again Pagans are enthusiastic about Celtic designs and are successfully appropriating Christian symbols back to their supposed primal meaning. Just how much of this is fantasy and how much is based in historical fact is difficult to sort out since the academic keepers of the facts are so reluctant to discuss symbolic meaning.

Steve Weiss · 07-27-2013, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

Since the sign of the cross is the symbol of Christianity and Jesus is always depicted as being nailed to one when the text, in fact, refers to a tree instead, one wonders how the confusion arose and why no one bothers to correct it. I have even seen some British high profile apologist voicing over cross when he quotes the very passage that refers to a tree. Not a peep from his followers about this denial of what is in plain sight.

What passage are you referring to?

The gospels refer to Jesus hung on a strauros, which is usually translated as cross or stake. There is a passing mention in Acts of an accusation against the Jews that they slew Jesus and hung him on a tree.

If you research this, you will find that this is a perpetual topic of discussion - the range of meanings for the words for tree, pole, stake, or cross. All are vertical pieces of wood.

Instrument of Jesus' crucifixion on wikipedia

The Jehovah's Witnesses are quite sure that Jesus was hung on a stake, not what we would regard as a cross, and that this is an important issue. From here

Quote:

Though the Bible does not specifically describe the instrument that Jesus died upon, tradition has it that He was put to death on a cross, consisting of a stake and a crossbeam. While the Christian Church has never considered the exact method of Jesus' crucifixion or impalement as a major concern, the Watchtower has certainly made an issue of it. In doing so, they hold true to their pattern of majoring on the minors; often distracting their followers from more important issues.

The Watchtower considers the churches as "unclean" for using the symbol of the cross for the death of Jesus....

Up until the late 30's the Watchtower pictured Christ as dying on the traditional cross. However, while later eliminating the cross as well as the name of Jesus from their front cover, they continued to use a watch tower as their symbol. In the book Enemies, (1937), Watchtower President J.F. Rutherford attacked the traditional story of the cross as wrong because "the cross was worshipped by the Pagan Celts long before the [birth] and death of Christ." (pp.188-189). ...

The current Society objections to the cross are:
1. The Biblical Greek doesn't suggest a cross, but rather a "pole" or "stake."
2. The cross was a pagan symbol later adopted by the "apostate" church.
3. Archaeology proves that Jesus died on an upright stake rather than a cross.
4. The cross is to be shunned rather than mentioned or displayed.

I'm sure that you know how to Google "Jesus was hung from a tree." There are a half dozen or more references to the tree scenario and none for a cross. If you can't tell the difference between a tree and a cross, then what's there to discuss? The King James version of the bible refers to tree, so perhaps your beef is with translators. Surely if cross rather than tree is the correct reference it would have been corrected by now, don't you think?

Toto · 07-28-2013, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

What passage are you referring to?

...

I'm sure that you know how to Google "Jesus was hung from a tree." There are a half dozen or more references to the tree scenario and none for a cross. If you can't tell the difference between a tree and a cross, then what's there to discuss? The King James version of the bible refers to tree, so perhaps your beef is with translators. Surely if cross rather than tree is the correct reference it would have been corrected by now, don't you think?

Is this your question? Yahoo answers

Quote:

The cross is symbolically associated with Jesus Christ, but while the Bible clearly states in places that Jesus was hung on a tree, there is no clear statement that Jesus was crucified on a cross.

References to the crucifixion tend to allude to these facts rather than simply stating directly that Jesus died by crucifixion on a cross, and statements about the cross and the crucifixion are ambiguous, elusive,mysterious, and possibly allegorical.

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." (Acts 5.30.)

"And we are witnesses of all things which he [Jesus] did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree" (Acts 10.39.)

"And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre." (Acts 13.29.)

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (Peter 2.24.)

If Jesus was hung on a tree, perhaps the cross entered Christian symbolism because it has been an important religious symbol since long before the Christian era and before Jesus was crucified.

"Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Jesus speaking long before he was crucified,according to Mark 8.34.)

"For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ" (Philippians 3.18.)

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9.23.)

Yes, the non-biblical Passion does portray the Roman crucifixion ritual, but it is not mentioned in the witness accounts, which simply have him stripped and beaten (with the inclusion of the vinegar and crown thing).

The word crucifixion is used repeatedly, but no evidence points to the ritual that occurs during an actual crucifixion, and the fact that they were allowed to entomb the body is telling, as the few Jews who were crucified were forbidden burial. Not to mention inconsistent times and the fact that his punishment was carried out between two thieves (crucifixion was for slaves and those stripped of citizenship status).

Look over the witness accounts with a critical eye:
Matthew Chapter 27, Mark Chapter 15, Luke Chapter 23, John Chapter 19 - while the word crucifixion is used, the description is more in line with a suspended hanging/flogging, which would have been the more common penalty, and would have explained why he was allowed a burial.

Unless you want to buy the whole Joseph of Arimathea requesting the body thing- why would Pilate allow such a thing? It is unprecedented and if in fact he were facing pressure from the Jewish leadership to carry out the punishment, it would be because it was severe not only because of the methodology, but also because the body is supposed to be left to decay. Wouldn't taking down the body for burial defeat the purpose of enacting that specific punishment (if it was the punishment requested)?

Now if Jesus WAS hung on a tree, what is meant by the following verse?
"...for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" (Galatians 3:13.)

This question pulls out a few references to "hung on a tree" from Acts and discounts the many clear references to crucifixion in the gospels. What's this all about?

The word crucifixion is used repeatedly, but no evidence points to the ritual that occurs during an actual crucifixion,

There was no ritual for crucifixion. :huh:

and the fact that they were allowed to entomb the body is telling, as the few Jews who were crucified were forbidden burial.

This is totally wrong. There were more than a few Jews who were crucified, and there is archaeological evidence of at least one crucifixion victim who was buried.

Not to mention inconsistent times and the fact that his punishment was carried out between two thieves (crucifixion was for slaves and those stripped of citizenship status).

Crucifixion was also for insurgents and rebels

Look over the witness accounts with a critical eye:

WHAT witness accounts? There are no witnesses. This is all fictional.

Matthew Chapter 27, Mark Chapter 15, Luke Chapter 23, John Chapter 19 - while the word crucifixion is used, the description is more in line with a suspended hanging/flogging, which would have been the more common penalty, and would have explained why he was allowed a burial.

This is incoherent.

The gospels describe Jesus being crucified. I doubt that this happened. But you can't take inconsistencies in the gospel stories and use them as evidence for Jesus not having been crucified.

Steve Weiss · 07-28-2013, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

I'm sure that you know how to Google "Jesus was hung from a tree." There are a half dozen or more references to the tree scenario and none for a cross. If you can't tell the difference between a tree and a cross, then what's there to discuss? The King James version of the bible refers to tree, so perhaps your beef is with translators. Surely if cross rather than tree is the correct reference it would have been corrected by now, don't you think?

Is this your question? Yahoo answers

Quote:

The cross is symbolically associated with Jesus Christ, but while the Bible clearly states in places that Jesus was hung on a tree, there is no clear statement that Jesus was crucified on a cross.

References to the crucifixion tend to allude to these facts rather than simply stating directly that Jesus died by crucifixion on a cross, and statements about the cross and the crucifixion are ambiguous, elusive,mysterious, and possibly allegorical.

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." (Acts 5.30.)

"And we are witnesses of all things which he [Jesus] did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree" (Acts 10.39.)

"And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre." (Acts 13.29.)

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (Peter 2.24.)

If Jesus was hung on a tree, perhaps the cross entered Christian symbolism because it has been an important religious symbol since long before the Christian era and before Jesus was crucified.

"Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Jesus speaking long before he was crucified,according to Mark 8.34.)

"For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ" (Philippians 3.18.)

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9.23.)

Yes, the non-biblical Passion does portray the Roman crucifixion ritual, but it is not mentioned in the witness accounts, which simply have him stripped and beaten (with the inclusion of the vinegar and crown thing).

The word crucifixion is used repeatedly, but no evidence points to the ritual that occurs during an actual crucifixion, and the fact that they were allowed to entomb the body is telling, as the few Jews who were crucified were forbidden burial. Not to mention inconsistent times and the fact that his punishment was carried out between two thieves (crucifixion was for slaves and those stripped of citizenship status).

Look over the witness accounts with a critical eye:
Matthew Chapter 27, Mark Chapter 15, Luke Chapter 23, John Chapter 19 - while the word crucifixion is used, the description is more in line with a suspended hanging/flogging, which would have been the more common penalty, and would have explained why he was allowed a burial.

Unless you want to buy the whole Joseph of Arimathea requesting the body thing- why would Pilate allow such a thing? It is unprecedented and if in fact he were facing pressure from the Jewish leadership to carry out the punishment, it would be because it was severe not only because of the methodology, but also because the body is supposed to be left to decay. Wouldn't taking down the body for burial defeat the purpose of enacting that specific punishment (if it was the punishment requested)?

Now if Jesus WAS hung on a tree, what is meant by the following verse?
"...for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" (Galatians 3:13.)

This question pulls out a few references to "hung on a tree" from Acts and discounts the many clear references to crucifixion in the gospels. What's this all about?

The word crucifixion is used repeatedly, but no evidence points to the ritual that occurs during an actual crucifixion,

There was no ritual for crucifixion. :huh:

and the fact that they were allowed to entomb the body is telling, as the few Jews who were crucified were forbidden burial.

This is totally wrong. There were more than a few Jews who were crucified, and there is archaeological evidence of at least one crucifixion victim who was buried.

Not to mention inconsistent times and the fact that his punishment was carried out between two thieves (crucifixion was for slaves and those stripped of citizenship status).

Crucifixion was also for insurgents and rebels

Look over the witness accounts with a critical eye:

WHAT witness accounts? There are no witnesses. This is all fictional.

Matthew Chapter 27, Mark Chapter 15, Luke Chapter 23, John Chapter 19 - while the word crucifixion is used, the description is more in line with a suspended hanging/flogging, which would have been the more common penalty, and would have explained why he was allowed a burial.

This is incoherent.

The gospels describe Jesus being crucified. I doubt that this happened. But you can't take inconsistencies in the gospel stories and use them as evidence for Jesus not having been crucified.

So, the fictional character, Jesus, was hung from a tree or a cross. The bible is not the source of facts because they are few and far between. I suppose that a cross is a better marketing symbol than a tree, so the ambiguity of not only the tree/cross but also the inscription on the tree/cross itself is inconsistent among the Gospels. It's all fiction, guys, so debate over the finer points of the contradictory stories is just so much mental masturbation.

mountainman · 07-28-2013, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

I suppose that a cross is a better marketing symbol than a tree, so the ambiguity of not only the tree/cross but also the inscription on the tree/cross itself is inconsistent among the Gospels.

The marketing of the cross (4th century) and the figure-on-cross (6th century) and even the Celtic Cross in any archaeological context clearly follows (chronologically) the marketing of Canonical Christianity to the centralised monotheistic Roman state by its Great fearless leader. There can be no ambiguity here.

Quote:

It's all fiction, guys, so debate over the finer points of the contradictory stories is just so much mental masturbation.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Cheerful Charlie · 07-28-2013, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

]

I'd like to see the evidence that the Celts worshipped a cross long before Jesus. I suspect this is just a method for the JWs to distance themselves from other Christian groups and claim that they're the only "true" church.

I am not aware of any Celtic crosses pre-Christianity, but crosses were common in Etruscan tombs, and occasionally found in Mycenian Greece. The Spanish were somewhat startled to find crosses used by the Aztecs as a symbol of Quetzalcoatl.

Today, the Celtic cross with 4 equal length arms has been adopted by many European white racist groups as a symbol. Here in Texas that symbol was used by a pre-civil war secret group, Order of the Golden Cross that was pretty powerful and supported the Confederates.

Cheerful Charlie

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