Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Huon · 09-04-2013, 06:35 AM

Source :
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...hist.asp#book1

History of the Franks, Book 1, Chapter 30

Quote:

Under the emperor Decius many persecutions arose against the name of Christ, and there was such a slaughter of believers that they could not be numbered. Babillas, bishop of Antioch, with his three little sons, Urban, Prilidan and Epolon, and Xystus, bishop of Rome, Laurentius, an archdeacon, and Hyppolitus, were made perfect by martyrdom because they confessed the name of the Lord. Valentinian and Novatian were then the chief heretics and were active against our faith, the enemy urging them on. At this time seven men were ordained as bishops and sent into the Gauls to preach, as the history of the martyrdom of the holy martyr Saturninus relates. For it says: " In the consulship of Decius and Gratus, as faithful memory recalls, the city of Toulouse received the holy Saturninus as its first and greatest bishop." These bishops were sent: bishop Catianus to Tours; bishop Trophimus to Arles; bishop Paul to Narbonne; bishop Saturninus to Toulouse; bishop Dionisius to Paris; bishop Stremonius to Clermont, bishop Martial to Limoges.

And of these the blessed Dionisius, bishop of Paris, after suffering divers pains in Christ's name, ended the present life by the threatening sword. And Saturninus, already certain of martyrdom said to his two priests: "Behold, I am now to be offered as a victim and the time of my death draws near. I ask you not to leave me at all before I come to the end." But when he was seized and was being dragged to the capitol he was abandoned by them and was dragged alone. And so when he saw that he was abandoned he is said to have made this prayer; "Lord Jesus Christ, grant my request from holy heaven, that this church may never in all time have the merit to receive a bishop from among its citizens." And we know that to the present it has been so in this city. And he was tied to the feet of a mad bull, and being sent headlong from the capitol he ended his life. Catianus, Trophimus, Stremonius, Paul and Marcial lived in the greatest sanctity, winning people to the church and spreading the faith of Christ among all, and died in peace, confessing the faith. And thus the former by martyrdom as well as the latter by confession, left the earth and were united in the heavens.

This quote shows that at the time of Decius, Gaul was far from being christianized, and that many bishops (Catianus of Tours, Trophimus of Arles, Stremonius of Clermont, Paul of Narbonne, and Marcial of Limoges) died in peace.

Huon · 09-04-2013, 07:02 AM

According to Christian tradition, Saint Denis (also called Dionysius, Dennis, or Denys) is a Christian martyr and saint. In the third century, he was Bishop of Paris. He was martyred in connection with the Decian persecution of Christians, shortly after 250 AD.

After his head was chopped off, Denis is said to have picked it up and walked ten kilometres (six miles) from the summit of the hill, now Montmartre, preaching a sermon the entire way, to the town which is now Saint Denis (N.E. of Paris) making him one of many cephalophores (head-carriers) in hagiology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalophore

Huon · 09-04-2013, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

I must admit that I find this kind of activity, with respect to ancient persecutions, rather disgusting. People suffered miserably; and some bastard is finding excuses to play it down and protect those who did this evil?

But I don't much care for revisionism in any field.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Good catholics and Albigenses.
The slaughter of Saint Barthelemy (24 August 1572) in Paris by the (Christian) Catholics against the (Christian) Protestants.

François de Beaumont, baron des Adrets (c. 1512/1513-1587) was a Huguenot leader, notorious for his cruelty; he died a Catholic.

Roger Pearse · 09-04-2013, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Source :
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...hist.asp#book1

History of the Franks, Book 1, Chapter 30

Quote:

Under the emperor Decius many persecutions arose against the name of Christ, and there was such a slaughter of believers that they could not be numbered. Babillas, bishop of Antioch, with his three little sons, Urban, Prilidan and Epolon, and Xystus, bishop of Rome, Laurentius, an archdeacon, and Hyppolitus, were made perfect by martyrdom because they confessed the name of the Lord. Valentinian and Novatian were then the chief heretics and were active against our faith, the enemy urging them on. At this time seven men were ordained as bishops and sent into the Gauls to preach, as the history of the martyrdom of the holy martyr Saturninus relates. For it says: " In the consulship of Decius and Gratus, as faithful memory recalls, the city of Toulouse received the holy Saturninus as its first and greatest bishop." These bishops were sent: bishop Catianus to Tours; bishop Trophimus to Arles; bishop Paul to Narbonne; bishop Saturninus to Toulouse; bishop Dionisius to Paris; bishop Stremonius to Clermont, bishop Martial to Limoges.

And of these the blessed Dionisius, bishop of Paris, after suffering divers pains in Christ's name, ended the present life by the threatening sword. And Saturninus, already certain of martyrdom said to his two priests: "Behold, I am now to be offered as a victim and the time of my death draws near. I ask you not to leave me at all before I come to the end." But when he was seized and was being dragged to the capitol he was abandoned by them and was dragged alone. And so when he saw that he was abandoned he is said to have made this prayer; "Lord Jesus Christ, grant my request from holy heaven, that this church may never in all time have the merit to receive a bishop from among its citizens." And we know that to the present it has been so in this city. And he was tied to the feet of a mad bull, and being sent headlong from the capitol he ended his life. Catianus, Trophimus, Stremonius, Paul and Marcial lived in the greatest sanctity, winning people to the church and spreading the faith of Christ among all, and died in peace, confessing the faith. And thus the former by martyrdom as well as the latter by confession, left the earth and were united in the heavens.

This quote shows that at the time of Decius, Gaul was far from being christianized, and that many bishops (Catianus of Tours, Trophimus of Arles, Stremonius of Clermont, Paul of Narbonne, and Marcial of Limoges) died in peace.

Interesting to see the reference to the fate of Saturninus. I believe that Gaul was very far indeed from being Christianised in 250 AD.

I would hesitate to trust martyrological accounts from Gregory's period, tho; by then the tradition of hagiographical fiction must have been well established.

Toto · 09-04-2013, 11:08 AM

The wikipedia author does not seem to be minimizing the effect of the Decian persecutions, merely clarifying the motive.

The author of this seems to be Smeat75, who writes:

Quote:

I am not sure I would have invented Wikipedia (just let anybody edit anything), but now it is here it carries a big responsibility as Wikipedia articles come up first on almost all google searches for information. What is bothering me the most right now are the innumerable articles I am finding that repeat Christian legends about saints and martyrs and so forth as if they were true and the just about equally numerous articles, especially on history, copied and pasted out of a more than a hundred year old edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, using ludicrously old- fashioned language. There seem to be about a hundred articles I can think of that need to be completely re-written right now but complying with all the minuscule rules of WP makes this a very time-consuming activity.

Clivedurdle · 09-04-2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Good catholics and Albigenses.
The slaughter of Saint Barthelemy (24 August 1572) in Paris by the (Christian) Catholics against the (Christian) Protestants.

François de Beaumont, baron des Adrets (c. 1512/1513-1587) was a Huguenot leader, notorious for his cruelty; he died a Catholic.

On people being perfected by martyrdom I was staying near Bezier Cathedral....

mountainman · 09-04-2013, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Source :
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...hist.asp#book1

History of the Franks, Book 1, Chapter 30

Quote:

Under the emperor Decius many persecutions arose against the name of Christ, and there was such a slaughter of believers that they could not be numbered. Babillas, bishop of Antioch, with his three little sons, Urban, Prilidan and Epolon, and Xystus, bishop of Rome, Laurentius, an archdeacon, and Hyppolitus, were made perfect by martyrdom because they confessed the name of the Lord. Valentinian and Novatian were then the chief heretics and were active against our faith, the enemy urging them on. At this time seven men were ordained as bishops and sent into the Gauls to preach, as the history of the martyrdom of the holy martyr Saturninus relates. For it says: " In the consulship of Decius and Gratus, as faithful memory recalls, the city of Toulouse received the holy Saturninus as its first and greatest bishop." These bishops were sent: bishop Catianus to Tours; bishop Trophimus to Arles; bishop Paul to Narbonne; bishop Saturninus to Toulouse; bishop Dionisius to Paris; bishop Stremonius to Clermont, bishop Martial to Limoges.

And of these the blessed Dionisius, bishop of Paris, after suffering divers pains in Christ's name, ended the present life by the threatening sword. And Saturninus, already certain of martyrdom said to his two priests: "Behold, I am now to be offered as a victim and the time of my death draws near. I ask you not to leave me at all before I come to the end." But when he was seized and was being dragged to the capitol he was abandoned by them and was dragged alone. And so when he saw that he was abandoned he is said to have made this prayer; "Lord Jesus Christ, grant my request from holy heaven, that this church may never in all time have the merit to receive a bishop from among its citizens." And we know that to the present it has been so in this city. And he was tied to the feet of a mad bull, and being sent headlong from the capitol he ended his life. Catianus, Trophimus, Stremonius, Paul and Marcial lived in the greatest sanctity, winning people to the church and spreading the faith of Christ among all, and died in peace, confessing the faith. And thus the former by martyrdom as well as the latter by confession, left the earth and were united in the heavens.

This quote shows that at the time of Decius, Gaul was far from being christianized, and that many bishops (Catianus of Tours, Trophimus of Arles, Stremonius of Clermont, Paul of Narbonne, and Marcial of Limoges) died in peace.

Interesting to see the reference to the fate of Saturninus. I believe that Gaul was very far indeed from being Christianised in 250 AD.

I would hesitate to trust martyrological accounts from Gregory's period, tho; by then the tradition of hagiographical fiction must have been well established.

Gregory wrote his Christian hagiographical fiction in the 6th century. It was in vogue. If we follow Momigliano on this one, Christian hagiographical fiction was invented by Athanasius c.360 CE, and with his (fictional) "Life of Anthony".

It is interesting to note that (IMO) the order of the invention (i.e. their historical appearance)
of these four different types of Christian literature seems to be as follows:

Suggested order of appearance: NT, gnostics, martyrs, saints

1. (??? CE) Canonical (absolutely true, non-fictional history) books (gospels, acts, letters, etc) [ author = unknown orthodox]

2. (??? CE) Gnostic (fiction?) books (gospels, acts, letters, etc) non canonical - [author = unknown heretic]

3. (325 CE?) Martyrological (fiction?) books - inventor Eusebius? [author = known orthodox]

4. (350 CE) Hagiographical (fiction) books - inventor Athanasius. [author = known orthodox (bishops et al)]

However I have often wondered whether the martyrologies were to be considered as part of the hagiographical fiction.

Chronologically AFAIK martyrologies appear with Eusebius, and were then heavily borrowed upon by later hagiographies.

AFAIK the largest and possibly first publisher of martyrologies was Eusebius Pamphilus of Caesarea.

EG: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_Palestine

Quote:

Reliability

Eusebius openly states that he is not going to discuss anything that does not "vindicate the divine judgement" and will relate only those things "which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity", which caused 18th-century historian Edward Gibbon to distrust the work altogether.[5] However in the 19th century, historian Joseph Barber Lightfoot commended Eusebius in such passages for his honesty.[6]

Roger Pearse · 09-05-2013, 03:20 AM

The point about "vindicating the divine judgement" is that Eusebius was going to report on stuff that senior clergy didn't want said; material that showed corruption and wrong-doing; and it was THAT activity which Eusebius felt had attracted divine judgement on the church. He therefore said he was going to quote it, to show that the judgement was deserved.

Writing anything about contemporaries was very risky. Eusebius was actually showing courage in stating bad things about the church of his time.

Gibbon of course merely twisted the facts. But I wonder, sometimes, if I am the only one who can read English. Phrases like "vindicating the divine judgement" don't seem to mean anything to most people, and they suppose it means the opposite of what it does.

Roger Pearse · 09-05-2013, 03:23 AM

Hagiography does start with Athanasius' life of Paul, or so I gather. Earlier texts were not written with those ideas in mind. The acts of the martyrs tended to be the court record (acta) with a few additional comments. Of course such texts could be reworked or interpolated later, once the boom in fiction began.

That said, I have never encountered anyone who can write sensibly about the subject of hagiography. I certainly don't know enough to do so. Delehaye's books are incredibly waffly.

andrewcriddle · 09-05-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Hagiography does start with Athanasius' life of Paul, or so I gather. Earlier texts were not written with those ideas in mind. The acts of the martyrs tended to be the court record (acta) with a few additional comments. Of course such texts could be reworked or interpolated later, once the boom in fiction began.

Hi Roger

I think you mean Athanasius' life of Anthony.

(Jerome later wrote a life of Paul the First Hermit a legendary account of an older contemporary of Anthony.)

Andrew Criddle

09-04-2013, 07:02 AM	#22
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Saint Denis of Paris According to Christian tradition, Saint Denis (also called Dionysius, Dennis, or Denys) is a Christian martyr and saint. In the third century, he was Bishop of Paris. He was martyred in connection with the Decian persecution of Christians, shortly after 250 AD. After his head was chopped off, Denis is said to have picked it up and walked ten kilometres (six miles) from the summit of the hill, now Montmartre, preaching a sermon the entire way, to the town which is now Saint Denis (N.E. of Paris) making him one of many cephalophores (head-carriers) in hagiology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalophore

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-05-2013, 03:20 AM	#28
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	The point about "vindicating the divine judgement" is that Eusebius was going to report on stuff that senior clergy didn't want said; material that showed corruption and wrong-doing; and it was THAT activity which Eusebius felt had attracted divine judgement on the church. He therefore said he was going to quote it, to show that the judgement was deserved. Writing anything about contemporaries was very risky. Eusebius was actually showing courage in stating bad things about the church of his time. Gibbon of course merely twisted the facts. But I wonder, sometimes, if I am the only one who can read English. Phrases like "vindicating the divine judgement" don't seem to mean anything to most people, and they suppose it means the opposite of what it does.

09-05-2013, 03:23 AM	#29
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Hagiography does start with Athanasius' life of Paul, or so I gather. Earlier texts were not written with those ideas in mind. The acts of the martyrs tended to be the court record (acta) with a few additional comments. Of course such texts could be reworked or interpolated later, once the boom in fiction began. That said, I have never encountered anyone who can write sensibly about the subject of hagiography. I certainly don't know enough to do so. Delehaye's books are incredibly waffly.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.