Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Biff,
Really?

How so?


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jobar

SOMMS:
You may not be fully aware of the ongoing dialog between Golaith and myself. Perhaps an outline is in order.

Somms, I am a moderator. You may take it as given that I *am* aware of all dialog in this forum. It's my job.


I think a few picked up on this (Biff the Unclean). This dialog IS my proof. It is proof that 'X's revelation of Y is dependant upon X's attitude towards Y'. In this case...X is Goliath...Y is me.

Nonsense. You are simply refusing to answer a specific question. We need no "revelation" of your existence, SOMMS. We can read your posts. You exist- even if you were an intelligent computer, or an alien tapped into the internet, or an atheist posing as a theist, we see what you write. Your existence is not in question. God's, however, is.

...God does not care about being regarded as some objective fact (like gravity) by mankind.
In the same way I do not care in the slightest whether or not you believe my existence is fact.

SOMMS, you're talking to us. WE KNOW YOU EXIST. We have the evidence of the words on the screen. If I felt I had to track you down for some reason, I could (with the help of the board admins) do so. (This is not something I would do unless I thought you were in deadly danger, or a danger to society- not making any sort of implied threat here, understand!)

And, if you try to say that 'God does NOT exist as an objective fact', then what are we arguing for? You're a fellow atheist.

God does care tremendously about having a personal relationship with each one of us. Similarly, I care if you (Jobar) actually wished to become friends despite the fact I live in Seattle.

Ones attitude towards God determines their relationship/revelation of God. Just like your attitude towards me would greatly affect your ability to form a relationship with me.

If God is actually what you and other Christians claim, then his wants have all the force of physical law. He's OMNIPOTENT- what he wants, he gets! Our 'attitude' towards him would matter about as much as a cotton ball matters to a supernova! You try to compare the Allmighty to human beings, and surprise, surprise- all your comparisons fall flat. (And if you want to argue about freewill, let's not do it here.)


Because IF God exists THEN he is a sentient being, not just a lifeless, inanimate object. As such, our attitude towards God affects our revelation of him.

But SOMMS, I find no difficulty in proving the existence of any number of lifeless, inanimate objects. Sentient beings are no trouble either. It's GOD I see zero, zip, zilch evidence for! I've been modding this board for some while now- I probably think about the existence of God(s) more than most preachers do! Even though this is an atheist's forum, I am open to the best arguments of anyone from the Pope on down. I am NOT just being pig-headed and denying your god out of spite or something! Whatever my attitude I see no reason to believe in him.

...I think what you really want to know is why I think God is different than an invisible pink unicorn. Short answer: mankind has no revelation of an invisible pink unicorn...mankind does have a revelation of God. Long answer: probably another topic.

Short reply: change 'IPU' to 'Rama' or 'Allah' or any other god in which you do not believe. Then answer *that* question. You're waffling, here!

...I could choose not to divulge a proof of Pythagoreans Theorem a^2+b^2 = c^2...this doesn't mean it was 'proven invalid'.

Sigh. That's really dumb, SOMMS. If you make a statement- whether a mathematical theorem, or an attempt at proving God's existence- and then claim that it's true, I may then test your statement. However, if you say "I have a true theorem, but I'm not going to tell you what it is!" I am quite entitled to tell you your theorem is entirely worthless to me. That is what you have done to Goliath- indeed, to all the many respondents who have disagreed with your premise for many pages now. Little wonder if we start to think your argument is as nonexistent as your God.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Jobar ]</p>

Biff the unclean

One more time...because you aren't getting it.
We are open.
We do seek.
There is nothing there.

Just you saying "Do you hear that?
•
•
•
•
That nothing is God not talking to you because you aren't cool like me!"

Goliath

SOMMS,

Absolutely incorrect. I neither required nor asked for "revelation" of your existence. I asked you to prove the claim that if your god exists, then evidence of its existence is dependent upon one's attitude towards said god. You have not provided a proof. You are thusly refuted. Please do not ever claim otherwise again.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jobar,

Good post. I'll be back on Monday when we can talk about this stuff in length. But I would leave you with this.

I actually am not attempting to 'prove God exists.'

I may personally say God exists because it is my belief. I am only stating 'IF God exists...THEN ones revelation of him is dependent upon ones attitude towards him.'


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Goliath

SOMMS,

And your proof of this statement is....where, exactly?

Sincerely,

Goliath

TerryTryon

SOMMS:
Any truth you seek with an "open heart" leads to self-deception. Any wisdom found through faith is merely a reflection of your own desire. Authentic knowing never comes from wanting somthing to be true. Knowing comes from testing, and that testing must use precautions to divorce what you want to be true from the outcome of the test. Every ideology in the world that fails to take the possibility of wish fulfilment into account, will also fail to find any verifiable truth. Moroni 10:4-5 is a recipe for self-deception. It is the basis for all claims that god grants knowledge to those who seek with an open heart. But knowledge by faith is fake. Human knowledge is always tentative, open to doubt, flawed, and heuristic. Claims of supernatural knowledge are lazy, arrogant, arcane, inflexible, and heartless. They set nation against nation and brother against brother. If all you can say is, "I know the truth because god revealed it to me," there is no way for another person to verify your claim. And if you further claim, "The reason I have this knowledge and you don't is because I have the proper attitude and you don't," you are setting yourself up for a fight with those who are equally self-deceived but claim a different truth from a different source but with the same magic knowledge that comes as a gift, not as a struggle. Claims that can only be verified by appeals to credulity are nonsense. Just as in the legend in which Euclid tells the Pharaoh, "There is no royal road to geometry," there is no divine road to truth. There is only tenacious seeking, backbreaking testing, and tentative holding. Your approach is like a footrace in which a runner leaves the course, sneaks back through the bushes, and attempts to claim the prize without running the race.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: TerryTryon ]

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: TerryTryon ]</p>

Ojuice5001

TerryTryon,

Subtle security risks in a store can only be seen by someone who is looking for them and has a suitably trained mind. Yet they are real. Maybe the same is true of supernaturalism.

Biff the unclean

And you recieved your training from whom exactly? The person trained in security can demonstrate the risks to the untrained after he has spotted them. Why isn't this possible with supernaturalism? Are you claiming to have superpowers that enable you to see the supernatural?

Why do Xians keep claiming that Atheists don't see God because they don't want to?

Psycho Economist

Theists feel that wanting to believe in a god is necessary and sufficient cause to believe in that god. If that's true, then it holds that:

A implies B
Not B implies not A

And if you get up on your soap box and say "I truely sought your god and found the case for his existance wanting of evidence", they turn around and say "You never really wanted to believe, because if you did 'really' want to believe, you would have faith."

And no true Scottsman wears manties under his kilt, either.