Dreamer_87

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this site so first of all HELLO YOU LOT!

Ok the question is basicly 'What do you know about Islam and what do you think of the religion?' As a system of morals is it 'backward' as a whole or does it include positive teachings?

Also do you think that it 'encourages' (?) terrorism? and Is the 'war against terrorism' against the religion itself or only against the followers?

Sorry my questions might not be making a lot of sense but I'm curious as to what is known about the religion (and to a lesser extent its followers) because of Sept. 11 ( and more recently the Attack in Bali) and the significance the 'war on terror' has on modern politics.

Best regards,
Dreamer_87

P.S. Btw I'm not sure this is the appropriate forum to post this question to, if I'm mistaken then I'd appreciate it if one of the mods/other users informed me where to put it.

Thanks in advance! Ciao ciao

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Dreamer_87 ]</p>

Radcliffe Emerson

I have a copy of the Koran I've studied a little. There are definitely hostile words in the book for people of other beliefs, but I haven't found anything yet that condones terrorism. Most of the passages I find say Muslims should leave their enemies alone once they cease hostilities, or something to that effect. I haven't found anything that tells them to forcibly convert others either. The passages I've found tells Muslims to stay away from believers of other faiths and not socialize with them.

Dreamer_87

Hi Radcliffe

First of all thanks for taking the time to respond to my Q. If you don't mind my asking which translator's version do you have? At the moment I'm reading Abdullah Yusuf Ali and J.M Rodwell (Ali was an Indian muslim and J.M. was a victorian christian clergyman so hopefully I'll get a balanced view by comparing their explanations and points of view). I'm arabic, so I have the advantage of being able to read the text itself.

Sorry but would you please quote the exact verses? I have more less the same point of view but for accuracy's sake (and for all the other members who are unfamiliar with the text) I think it would be best if we include the verses; I plan on doing just that near the 'end' of the thread, after everyone's given their point of view

Again many thanks for taking the time!
Dreamer

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Dreamer_87 ]</p>

99Percent

This is the right forum if we are going to talk about the distinguishing moral aspects of Islam. But if you want to discuss Islam in general, then I can move it to Misc. Religion Discussion.

Dreamer_87

I think I'd like to keep it here.
Thanks, 99

Best regards,
Dreamer

dangin

Morality I'm indifferent too. Islam's backwards ass treatment of women is both wrong and counter productive, but that is more silliness than morality.

The real problem with Islam is that Allah and the State are one. There can be no state(country, government) without Allah. Islam, and the United States (and other nations that keep goverment and religion separate)will eventually come to blows over this massive policy difference. Maybe not for this exact reason, but the west's "immorality", and the islamic theocracies creation of Mohammed-killbots will eventually lead to a difinitive confrontation. (Why are we, the West, waiting???)

We will continue to govern in a secular manner(even with churchies like bush running things) Islamic theocracies will continue to warp the minds of their populations with theocratic control and education that focuses on religion more than real knowledge. These theocracies are also keeping down the free flow of information which is the only way they have maintained power as long as they have.

Now mind you, this is not an indictment of arab culture. The west owes a huge dept of gratitude to the scholars of the Arab world who kept so much science alive that was lost during the dark ages in Europe.

Arab culture, dance, music, architecture, literature, and many other things are marvelous. It's just conservative islam that has to go.

The best method to rid the world of the sickness that is zealous, fanatical, and literal interpretation of scripture(not just islamic, but christian too) is real education and information. The silly books just don't stand up to the freely, and well educated mind.

Radcliffe Emerson

I'll have to double-check my copy, when I found the info I found, I was looking in the index in back for specific subjects. I believe it might be the translation by Ali however.
I'll check.

crownboy

dangin said:

Couldn't agree more. The greatest evil of Arab Muslim nations is the lack of seperation of church and state. The very nature of man made religion guarantees that the system is not perfect, so treating religion as the absolute arbiter on justice and morals will necessarily result in screwed up societies such as we see now in the Middle East. While democracies aren't perfect (as yet ), they're far and away better than any theocratic/ robber barron dictatorship that exist in the middle east right now.

It's easy to get people to do horrible things once they are robbed of their faculty of critical thought, so Muslim young men are easy prey for any two bit religious extremist. The holy books of Judaism, Christanity and Islam all have examples of needless violence (any perfect God who has to lower his standards to abide by barbaric standards of an ancient time couldn't be that powerful ), but Muslims seems to take their religious fables more seriously than the other two. Of course, it isn't true that all or most Muslims are potential terrorist, but the lack of outspoken criticsm by Muslims in general on terrorism is quite disturbing to me.

I have several friends who are Muslim, all very moderate, but to date only one of them has unequivocally voiced complete opposition to the use of suicide bombings in Isreal. They all preface their opinions with something to the effect that "Islam is not a religion of war", but most will say that while they would not personally do what the Palestinans do, that they still see some justification in an act, that IMO has absolutely no moral grounds (I tend to be fairly sympathetic to the Palestians, but any taking of innocent lives under any circumstances is wrong IMO, and I do support the right of Isreal to exist as a state, though not necessarily in all the land they now occupy.).

I also believe that the Muslim world's take on the west in somewhat silly. On issues in where the US exploits anyone, including Muslims nations, I'm pretty critical of my country, but when Muslims claim that their countries are "morally superior", that does get on my nerves.

The favourite example seems to be the supposed "immorality" of western women. What objective reason does one have for judging another human being as "good" or "bad" based on such an arbitrary measure? Are the streets safer to walk in the middle east than in the US? Is there a flow of emigration from the US to the middle east, or vice versa? Who's a better person : the Muslim woman who has had sex with no one but her husband but wishes death upon millions of innocent people and supports the killing of teenagers for revenge for things they did not do (esp. if this woman is not anywhere near this area geographically, and therefore should have some emotional dispassion to the situation), or a woman who spends her time helping the disadvantaged, making a positive difference in peoples lives, but has also slept with 20 men she has not been married too? In many Muslims minds it would be the former, but I'd pick the latter 24/7 365 in a no brainer. Of course, there are fundy Christains who think similiarly, and of course there are many Muslim women who work to better their community, etc. and many western women who are truly dispicable. But the point is, something like a woman's virginity, which seems to be a real sticking point in the Muslim mind as an indicator of being morally "good", is not a sound rational basis for making such a decision. Even if it means alot religiously, at least try to think about from a different, more realistic POV, especially when people don't share the same beliefs.

So basically, as long as a Muslim respects the beliefs of others, I respect them; if they don't, then I won't. Pretty much how I am with Christains or any other group.

dangin

If anyone caught West Wing last week, Leo said (paraphrase)

Leo: What is it going to take to end this conflict(with islamic states and terrorism)? Is it only when the US flag flies over Mecca that this will be over? And if it is, what are we waiting for?

I'm going over to PD with this.

Vorkosigan

This is a topic that simply cries out for Boro Nut.