Muffinstuffer

Because they are there to heal the sick. They've been there throughout history. Why NOT take them to see real medical doctors? Are you implying that because I believe God can heal the sick and suffering, I must ALWAYS ask him to heal the sick ONLY, and must NOT take them to see real medical doctors?

Ronin

Thanks...really.

Acceptable.

I make mistakes as well...I do not attempt to sneak them in to a conversation without complete confidence in my assertion.

I accept the apology.

For what it is worth...'miracles' are always believed by those credulous and predisposed not to question their veracity.

I am familiar with this theistic behavior.

I understand your position.

However, proof of the validity of any position does not require such blatantly questionable illustrations.

Rely on an honest evaluation of life events...it can only lead to sincerity and true understanding.

I call it as I see it...you did not initially behave in any other way than to imply that miracles occur and provided an alleged illustration to prove your faith as a result.

I have, indeed, been civil...though the outcome is not preferable to your assertion, therefore, may be interpreted otherwise.

Please do not demonize my forthright examination and exposure of your supernatural claim.

Your admissions regarding the actual veracity and truth of your anecdote stands as a testament to your position.

I remain skeptical and, along with others (brettc and Rhea), have significantly and politely provided biblical text and verse for you to examine against common notions of love and peace.

It is up to you to reconcile these issues in a civil manner.

Rhea

I don't get it. Why did you bring up the HepC story unless it was to show us that miracles occur? What was the point otherwise?

You say, to show that even if someone had 100% proof then we'd still doubt.

But...

No one has EVER shown 100% proof, so that's kind of a non-sequitur, I guess.

I just don't get it. You show something that even YOU don't believe is proof and use that to show us that we would doubt in the face of proof.

I am totally lost. You don't believe it ("you have your doubts") we don't believe it, yet it's supposed to show how we're unwilling to believe in the face of "100% proof" How does it illustrate that?

Don't you kind of need a 100% proof example to illustrate that?


We need the squinchy-nosed "huh" icon for this one. I'm befuddled. Flummoxed. Adrift. I'm afraid I just don't follow...

Rhea

I mean, SURELY if you believe in miracles and and the efficacy of prayer you must have ONE EXAMPLE that you feel has 100% proof.

Don't you?

Don't you have to have been convinced at least one time by 100% proof?

Just once to form that belief at all?

Do you know what I mean?

Like, it should be a no-brainer that ANYONE who believes in miracles has seen ONE. And that experience in their back-pocket should be available. And if every single believer had ONE instance of 100% proof, well, the scene would change dramatically, I should think.

Pretty much ANYONE who recommends aspirin to someone else has had ONE convincing episode of having a headache clear. Or why would they recommend it?

:huh

Muffinstuffer

If it pleases you to believe that I accept every 'miracle' that comes along without proof, then feel free to.

That I can most certainly do. And once again, now that you're pointing all of this out, I most certainly agree that I need to verify 100% everything about a situation before I use it to illustrate a point.

I do imply that miracles occur. Obviously I need to verify the facts for the current illustration, but the fact that I have not 100% verified the illustration does not in any way disprove all miracles.

I do not demonize your forthright examination and exposure of my supernatural claim. I claim that making points and peppering them with such words as 'crap' and 'bull$h!t', and saying that I take everyone here for fools, is serving no positive purpose.

This is a very nice way of saying what you've already said, I believe - that Christianity is about nothing more than 'implied crap.'

Which I will do my best to do, so long as I do not have to continually read negative comments about my beliefs and the like. I can easily deal with it when people say they have their doubts about it, when they say they don't believe a word of it, when they say it's all lies. It is quite another thing to deal with potshots at my faith and illustrations. I don't see how reading the words 'Christianity is all about this implied crap' or "this is an unverified piece of bull$h!t" provides me with any positive help or constructive criticism.

Muffinstuffer

Which is exactly why I have apologized for the current illustration, and have promised to verify everything I possibly can about similar illustrations in the future. I've already agreed that under the obvious circumstances it was a poor illustration. It doesn't really do much good to continue to belabor that point.

Ronin

I am willing to concede to your apology.

I think that Rhea's perception was founded in the chronology of the very post we have been considering.

Thanks, Muffinstuffer, for your re-assessment.

Muffinstuffer

That would depend, in all honesty. Now that I'm in the process of examining everything, it would probably make sense for me to be very careful of what I put forth. The definition of 'miracle' is 'An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.'

Going by this definition, it is somewhat tough to prove the existence of miracles, because as long as ANY explanation exists for a certain situation that can tie it to 'nature' or science, no matter how tenuous, it can be explained away. For instance.....after I just had gotten out of boot camp, I was on my way to catch a plane. I was walking off base, happy as heck to be going home on leave, when for no reason whatsoever, something told me to go check on my buddy Twix. I had NO reason to suspect anything at all was going on with Twix; none whatsoever. But I could not discount the feeling. There was an actual sense of dread, as if something horrible would happen if I did not. I had no reason to think anything would, because my buddy was the eternal optimist and was always happy, but still, I couldn't shake that feeling.

So I went back to check on him. I opened the door, and found him holding a Buck knife to his wrist. After wrestling him to the floor, we talked it out.

(Edit: If memory serves me correctly, I believe the situation causing him distress - which I had no knowledge of before the situation occurred - was that his mother had just died with no warning. He was so distraught that he tried to commit suicide.)

Now, I personally can't explain how this happened scientifically or using the laws of nature, so maybe it could be a miracle. However, despite the fact that I do not believe I had ANY forewarning of this, and despite the fact that he never betrayed any of the telltale behavior of suicidal behavior, and despite the fact that nothing 'made' me go back to speak to him other than the sudden unavoidable sense of dread concerning him....all it takes is for someone here to provide an example of how nature COULD explain it....and presto, it's not a miracle. I'm being completely honest, here. I've had more than a few of these situations occur, but in light of what just happened with the previous illustration, I'll need to examine them more in depth. I'm obviously submitting this example to you for examination, and I think it can be safely said that this time I'm not saying "This was definitely a miracle" because we'll need to establish a common definition of 'miracle.' After what just happened the LAST thing I want to do is to lose ALL credibility - if I have any left in the eyes of the posters here.

Now...this being said, I've not had any actual huge 'spectacular' miracles happen to me myself. I know of the father of one churchgoer at the church I used to go to who was supposedly 'miraculously' cured of AIDS, but I'd have to go verify this for myself, and will do so if I can.

Muffinstuffer

You're welcome, and thanks for leaving me with at least a SMALL shred of dignity.

Muffinstuffer

BTW....have to get an oil change and knock out the "Honeydew" list this afternoon so I will be on if I get the chance. If not I will hop on tomorrow.