Muffinstuffer

Just got here, and this is something that's bothered me for a while. I'll go ahead and state now that I'm Christian, so feel free to flame away and criticize me for my lack of intellect.

I've seen more than a few posts, both here and on other boards, that essentially do nothing but gripe about how some 'poor non-Christian' (or atheist, or agnostic, etc.) had to endure being witnessed to. Some of them are fairly civil. SOME. The rest are not.

My question is this....laying all the remarks and such aside, does anyone really take into account the fact that there is a genuine desire on the part of the believer to 'help' (I'm enclosing that word in quotes for y'all's benefit ) those who do not believe? In other words....I can understand if one comes up to you and starts spouting hellfire and brimstone, a la "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." I recently had 2 Mormon women (women? I thought it was only prepubescent boys in black slacks and white shirts) come to the door and try to witness to me. (Despite the fact that I have big problems with their beliefs, I curtly but civilly told them that I would rather avoid a long, drawn-out discussion with them about their beliefs, and that I had problems with what the Church of JC of LDS believes. That was that.) But by the same token, MANY people talk about their faith out of a genuine desire to share their happiness with others, whether it is misguided or not. If nothing else, the fact that most of the time, their desire to help is genuine and from the heart, should at least give the 'victim' reason to be less cutting and sarcastic and spiteful. If an atheist politely discusses with me his/her reasons for why I'm wrong, I will definitely respect that person and their opinion, even if I think they're on crack, and I'll never get upset at them.

This is not in any way an attempt to get anyone to listen to more Christians witness. If you can't stand someone witnessing, then you shouldn't have to listen to it. I can't stand it when people try to shove their beliefs on me. Not even Jesus forced his point of view on unwilling victims. But by the same token, most Christians and Christian boards I know have this viewpoint of atheists/agnostics as generally being upset, unhappy, guilt-laden, bitter, spiteful, etc., and most of what I've seen does not do much to provide arguments against this.

Rhea

That's a good question. I think the answer to it lies in understand why someone's "good intentions" should always get the benefit of a "good intentions check".

Take, for example, how incredibly insulting I think we all agree it would be for a wealthy person to keep harping on a poor person that they would JUST BE HAPPIER if they would just pay more attention to material things. Adam (the wealthy person) is SO HAPPY and GENUINELY wants Snikta (the poor person) to be happy, too. And ALL IT TAKES is being more focused on earning and saving money! What IS Snikta thinking when she decides to be a stay-at-home mom and live on a shoestring. How can she POSSIBLY not see the WONDERFUL favor Adam is doing her by trying to EXPLAIN how HAPPY he is being wealthy?


See - a teeny little bit - how those "good intentions" might come across?

Pyrrho

Looking at things posted on the Internet does not give a very accurate representation of what normal human interactions are like. First, because those posting at places like this one constitute a small percentage of the total population, which is also a biased sample (i.e., the people who post here are not randomly selected, but are people who find the site, have the time to post, and the desire to post). Second, many people vent their frustrations at web sites like this one. In the case of non-religious people, sites such as this one provide the only opportunity for some people, as those around them may be religious. Third, many of the Christians who post here are also very rude, and often rudeness begets rudeness (this works both ways). Fourth, people who post here are generally doing so anonymously, so there are not the same kinds of social conditions that may prevent such expressions in their real lives (though, of course, some people are very rude in pretty much all cases). Fifth, many Christians present very irrational arguments, and expect others to believe based on ridiculous claims. Calling them ridiculous and irrational may be rude, but it is accurate much of the time.

As for people wanting to help others, I have little doubt that many people are highly motivated to help people. The Inquisition appears to have been filled with people who wanted to help others:

From http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm

Have you ever heard that the road to hell is paved with good intentions?

Having good intentions does not mean that one is doing good, or that one should not be denounced in the strongest possible terms.

Rhea

Also note, IMO that they probably don't notice or remember all the "nice" replies that are "no, thank yous". Most sarcasm and snide responses are, IME, the result of the 40th or 600th witnessing.

I'm pretty sure I've never heard an atheist be cutting on the _first_ witness.


There are a lot of you trying to convince us we just need to get a bigger house to be happy, completely ignoring the fact that we are perfectly happy in our trailer. After the 40th time we start to wonder how we can possibly get the point across that this is HARDLY news to us, thankyouverymuch.

Muffinstuffer

Very good points overall, and with a lot of them I agree. Obviously, how good intentions come across has an awful lot to do in this case with one's point of view. On the one hand, there's loads of Christians - or Mormons, or Buddhists, etc. - whose lives have been positively enriched by their experiences, and at the least, those positive experiences can't be discounted, even if the beliefs can. But on the other hand, there's also more than a few Christians/Mormons/etc. (the story about William Bennett and his gambling comes to mind) who are NOT perfect, and some who have claimed to be Christian and advancing 'God's will' (the Inquisition, David Koresh, etc.), that screw it up for the rest. And that's not even getting into the whole discussion about whether or not Christianity is supported by fact or not. So depending upon where one stands, will of course have a lot to do with how they feel.

But by the same token, there are many atheists I know that just flat out take NO effort to be civil in the least. I know just as many atheists/agnostics who will immediately launch into a string of profanity when they find out about what I believe in, or when they ask questions and I answer, as I know people who do respond civilly and with charity.

Starboy

Muffinstuffer, just think of Christians as persistent, annoying, thoughtless, mechanical telemarketers. After a while it becomes war and all is fair.

Starboy

Muffinstuffer

Haha. Well, that has more to do with intelligence and common sense than it does with Christianity, I think. Even Jesus never forced anyone to believe. The Scripture does not say "I stand at the door and BREAK THE @#$#$# THING DOWN, and I'm coming in after your @$$." It says "I stand at the door and knock."

Muffinstuffer

Yeah, but I AM a Christian. You missed my introductory post, I believe.

In all honesty I believe this is why I DO NOT come across to most of my friends as such. If I 'see an opening' I will go for it ONCE, and I always try to live my life as an 'example' but if someone doesn't want to listen, then hey, they don't want to listen, and that's that.

Rhea

Ah, but therein lies the christian rub.

You say it once. And my other colleague says it once. And the caferteria worker says it once and the cop says it once...

And the non-christian... sigh. It is JUST like telemarketers. When you get the 600th one, it's the 600th DIFFERENT one and you are POWERLESS to do anything to avert the 601st. Each one innocently claiming, "but I only called once!"

Yeah, you only banged on my door and woke up my kid once. But the person yesterday woke up my kid, too, and the one last week interrupted me trying to give medicine.

Tell, me, can the christians PLEASE set up a DO NOT WITNESS list that we can sign up for? (<---- that was humor)

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
My question is this....laying all the remarks and such aside, does anyone really take into account the fact that there is a genuine desire on the part of the believer to 'help' (I'm enclosing that word in quotes for y'all's benefit ) those who do not believe?

Let's assume you find a very ill person. You have a vial of penicillin and you administer it to that person. Unfortunately, they happen to have a severe reaction to the drug and they die.

Did you want to help them? Indeed. Did you succeed in helping them? No, because you were not in possession of all the facts, because you did not know their particular situation. In other words, the road to death was paved with your good intentions. A genuine desire to help does not always mean that one will do the correct thing, nor that everyone else will also see this as an act of mercy/charity/love.

If some stranger desires to help me, they could send me money or chat to me about something we agree on (like Star Trek or Indian curries). Proselytizing to me is not helping me. The theist might think it's helping me, but the theist would be wrong.

But by the same token, MANY people talk about their faith out of a genuine desire to share their happiness with others, whether it is misguided or not.

If someone gains great happiness from observing pictures of naked children, would it be correct for them to share their happiness with others by passing around such pictures? Let's say, moreover, that they belonged to an cult which preached the morality of observing children in sexual positions. Would this justify their actions?

This is, I'll admit, an extreme hypothesis, but my point is that everyone is not made happy by the same religion. We are not cookie-cutter gingerbread persons; we are individuals, and what is right for one person, religion-wise, may be completely wrong for another. A desire to share one's happiness with others does not outweigh or cancel the fact that the desire may be misguided.

If nothing else, the fact that most of the time, their desire to help is genuine and from the heart,

Most of the time? How can we be sure when it is and when it isn't?

should at least give the 'victim' reason to be less cutting and sarcastic and spiteful.

Have you considered the fact that people venting here may not be able to do so in daily life when their co-workers, friends and family attempt to alter their minds regarding religion? Perhaps that is one reason for the sarcasm. But more to the point, are we ever allowed, under your reasoning, to be "cutting and sarcastic and spiteful", or even just witty and pointed? If a Christian calls me a fat unemployed lesbian, for example, would you consider it acceptable or appropriate for me to use a biting retort? Or should my course of action be silence or "I'm sorry you feel this way"?

If that's the case, I might as well not come to the board at all. I could just stay in real life and keep my mouth shut, rather than paying for internet access to do the same thing.

But by the same token, most Christians and Christian boards I know have this viewpoint of atheists/agnostics as generally being upset, unhappy, guilt-laden, bitter, spiteful, etc.,



I'm surprised they don't think we're all cannibals and homosexuals as well. Perhaps they should look up the psychological term "projection".

Seriously, though, one reason I'm an atheist is because it provides me with a peace of mind that Christianity never did. What reason do I have to be guilty, for example? My sex life - such as it is - does not make baby Jesus cry. And the only Christian against whom I'm bitter is Jack Chick, because his tracts converted me when I was sixteen and gave me the worst time of my life. Most of the time, I'm cheerful and optimistic. But perhaps the Christians on other boards know more about me than I do?

and most of what I've seen does not do much to provide arguments against this.

So, what precisely have you seen?