NOGO

GOD'S PLAN

Somewhere in Genesis man made a great sin and God promised us a saviour. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb whose blood would allow God to forgive humanity.

Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

We can look back at the OT note the bold text

Lev 4
24 "He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
25 "Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
26 All its fat he shall offer up in smoke on the altar as in the case of the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin, and he will be forgiven.

Lev 5
5 "So it shall be when he becomes guilty in one of these, that he shall confess that in which he has sinned.
6 "He shall also bring his guilt offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin.
...
8 "He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first that which is for the sin offering and shall nip its head at the front of its neck, but he shall not sever it.
9 "He shall also sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar: it is a sin offering.
10 "The second he shall then prepare as a burnt offering according to the ordinance. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it will be forgiven him.

There are many more examples.
Basically to have their sin's forgiven the Hebrews shed animal blood to Yahweh ... and He forgave them.
Jesus was suppose to be a sacrificial lamb for forginess of sins.
But hopefully not ordinary sins since they had ordinary lambs and other animals for that. This is the way Hebrews 9 puts it.

Hebrew 9:13-14
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So Jesus' blood was much more effective than animal blood but surely Jesus did not die for ordinary sins alone. Romans 5 explains Jesus' main mission.

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

A read of Romans 5 shows that Jesus' main mission was, in a nutshell, to undo Adam's sin and reconcile humanity to God.
This is then God's plan for humanity. After man sinned God promised a saviour who would fix man`s error and give him that which he has lost, eternal life.
I hope that I have stated the essence of Christianity without offending any Christian ears or, in this case, Christian eyes.

Here are my thoughts on the above which I shall call "God`s plan".
I have read all of the Old Testament.
In Genesis I don't really see that God promised a saviour but I will continue assuming that it is there and it is just I who cannot see it.
Where in the rest of the OT do any of God`s prophets speak of "God's plan" ?
I have not found a single word on the subject. So please if any Christian know of a place in the OT that speaks of the need to undo what Adam did in order to reconciled humanity with God and have eternal life, let me know.

Here is a good place where I would have expected a word or two.

Ecclesiastes 9
2 It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
8 Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head.
9 Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

The author of Ecc 9 is saying that there is one fate for all men, good or bad. All are going to Sheol. What is Sheol? Verse 4,5 and 10 give you some information. There is hope for the living but not for the dead (verse 4). The living know that they will die but the dead know nothing (verse 5). There is no activity, planning, knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (verse 10).

So this would have been the perfect place for this author to tell us that God actually promised humanity a way out. Redemption and eternal life through a saviour. But this author like all of the OT says nothing about "God's plan".

Where did Jesus state his mission as being related to "God's plan"?
That is where does Jesus say that he is there to undo what Adam did and reconcile humanity to God. I simply have not found any.

Jesus does state what his mission is about in Matthew 15

Matthew 15
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"
You can't have a clearer statement than that. Now people usually say but he granted the woman what she wanted. Yes he did but it does not matter much. Jesus says very plainly that he is not there for all of humanity but only for the people of Israel. How could this be the one to save the world from the fall of mankind. Jesus seems to be unaware of "God's plan".

So what Romans 5 says is contradicted by Matthew 15.

Matthew 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

A clear command not to go to the Gentiles.

In acts starting in Acts 10:10 Peter falls in a trance and has a vision. He later concludes that the vision is about going to bring the word to the Gentiles. In Acts 10:28-29 Peter says that he should not associate with Gentiles but that God told him otherwise, ie a reference to his vision. Peter concludes in verses 34 and 35
Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

The others who were with Peter were surprized (verse 45) When still other believers heard that the word of God was given to the Gentiles they complained and ask for an explanation Acts 11:1-3

This is Peter's explanation Acts 11:15-18
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' "Therefore if God gave to them the same
gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 14:27
When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:7
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

God made a choice that by Peter's mouth the Gentiles would receive the word.

So if Jesus' main mission was to save the whole world his disciples certainly missed that message complete.


Next...
This is Luke 1, John the baptist's father is speaking.

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Where is the fall of humanity?
Verses 74 and 75 stated the purpose of salvation.
Note "all the days of our life" but where is eternal life given by Jesus' sacrifice as opposed to death brought by Adam's sin (according to Romans 5). Where is God's promise to redeem humanity?

If mankind fell
If God promised a saviour to redeem humanity
THEN
a) This theme would have been present throughout the old testament
b) the prophets would have spoken about this very import revelation from God
c) Jesus would have stated THIS as his mission
d) Jesus would have communicated his purpose to his disciples.

INSTEAD

We have a vague reference in Genesis and we have Romans 5 and Acts and a BIG BIG HOLE in between.

I offer this as a challenge to all Christians. Please explain the BIG HOLE in GOD'S PLAN.

Note: For Paul Jesus was the saviour of humanity as planned from the start but for the Gospel/Acts it seems to be an afterthought.

poului

No reply yet, how odd......

jmborr

HI Nogo,

Do you hold the following passage as valid as
the ones you quote ?

Matthew 10-12 (NIV translation)

10When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where thee will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

It is important to note that Jesus "was astonished" at a gentile displaying such a faith. I think Jesus did not want to "waste his time" preaching to Gentiles who had no clue of Jewish law, nor to Samaritan women who because of being women, he assumed to be quite iliterate. When he found exceptions, he abided.

BrotherMan

I'm not a Christian, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I'll offer what I can.

Generally, it's understood that Genesis 3:14-15 is the promise of a saviour.

I'm not familiar enough with the whole of the Old Testament, so I can't say with any certainty where this promise is mentioned as prophecy.

Sheol is the Old Testament version of Hell. But it's not the firey lake of eternal torment described in the New Testament.

Sheol is where everyone goes (or went, whatever). I'll have to do some digging to find some good material on the differences between Old Testament "Hell" and New Testament "Hell."

[edit: Digging Complete] Info

As to the rest of what you've posted... well, let's just say that's part of why I'm not a Christian any more.

NOGO

This is really useful.

By the way this is the second time that post this subject. The first time around it was highjacked.

NOGO

Thanks for the comments. The reference should be Mt8:10-12

The problem is that Jesus also thought that his disciples should not waste their time with the Gentiles


Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


You can't save the whole world if your attitude is "don't waste my time with them".

We are then not surprised that in Acts the apostles did not know that Jesus meant it for everybody.

I grant you that the passage you mention is a point against my post however it seems to be an accidental deviation rather than a profound conviction.

If Jesus was truly there for everyone he would have made sure that his disciples understood this.

Another point is that Peter in Acts receives a message from God and not from Jesus. God told him that "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." This is obviously news to Peter which suggests that the overture to Gentiles was actually ordered at that very instant.


jmborr
It is important to note that Jesus "was astonished" at a gentile displaying such a faith.

Your interpretation of Jesus' astonishment is questionable in view of the fact that most Jews never bought the Jesus story precisely because they knew the OT all too well.

jmborr

quote:
Nogo,
The reference should be Mt8:10-12
Thanks for the correction !

Now,
Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I interpret this passage as follows:
Jesus wants the apostles to preach only to people who know about the law, or in other words, to the Jews.
Jesus later says in Mathew 10:6
"And as you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand"
Now, this sentence doen't mean a thing to an ignorant of the OT.

It sounds to me that if you want to become a christian, then you [B]first[/B ] must learn and accept the God of the old testament, then you are in the correct footing to understand the claims of Jesus. This was the position of the centurion in Mt8:10-12 who was not rejected by Jesus. It was my position, too.

Peter says the same in Acts 10:34
Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Peter does not say "every nation is welcome", but "in every nation, [B]the man who fears Him[/B...is welcome".

Finally, Jesus did preach in the (samaritan) village of the samaritan woman only because the villagers asked him to stay, and he did not reject them (John 4:40-42).

I would have liked more incidents like
that of the centurion or the samaritan woman to be recorded in the gospels to make my claims stronger, but this is impossible because Jesus was preaching in Judea, thus the chance for a proselite to bump into Jesus was really small.

jose,

NOGO

If Jesus told his disciples not to go to the gentiles and he told them to preach "the kingdom of heaven is at hand"

THEN

there is only one conclusion possible.

He never intended his message for the gentiles because the end of the world was AT HAND. There was no time to go to the Gentiles.

But also ...
It seems that you do not understand the fallacy of your point. If Jesus wanted that his teachings be given to the Gentiles then you have to start somewhere. You cannot simply say they will not understand and therefore there is no point starting.

On another level.
You are not addressing my original post. Jesus never makes a link between his mission and the "save the world" by undoing Adam's sin concept. If you start here then you will understand that Jesus should have stated his mission clearly and without ambiguity.


Matthew 15
24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
...
26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

This simply does not qualify as the saviour of the world who came to undo Adam's sin.

"the children's bread" was clearly not meant for Gentiles.

... not to mention the derogatory dog comment

idiom

I think you are confusing Jesus ministry with His mission.

God's plan was for the Hebrews to reach the world. Something the failed to do for centuries. In fact they managed to un-reach themselves.

Note in Luke 10 the variations in judgement based on knowledge.

Its not that Jesus never planned for the world to be redeemed, but He was a man of priorities. Priority one was to be crucified in Jerusalem, something that would have been hard to achieve if he had set sail for South America.

Het definitly instructed His disciples to reach the world, but previously the whole of Israel had been instructed to reach the world. Jesus did not come to do their work for them.

His priorities obviously worked, hence the existence of this forum.

NOGO

Care to substantiate the statements you are making.

Where did Jesus instruct his disples to "reach" the world?

Where did the whole Israel had been instructed to reach the world?

In both cases it seems that the message, if ever given, was not well received.

1) in Acts (see first post) the disciples were surprised that God (not Jesus) command Peter to go to the Gentiles.

2) the Jewish people have never made any efforts to convert Gentiles to their religion.


So Jesus had priorities, right? Getting himself killed was tops.
But even within the Gospels there is ample evidence that Jews in general were not receptive to his message. So there is no point saving the world by getting himself killed if no one is listening.

Lastlly, Jesus seems unaware that he is there to save mankind because of Adam's sin.