bonduca

I don't understand why you have mixed up my post with someone else's (your responses, perhaps? I cannot tell) and attributed the entire thing to me. Would you kindly correct that?

As far as pointless goes, I begin to believe trying to engage you in coherent discussion meets that criteria. Why do you refuse to answer my request for clarification?

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

Deputy42

i'm sorry if i messed up a quote. i don't know where it is, if you direct me to an error i will fix it.....promise

Deputy42

i believe that women as well as men should exist in "a state of perfect freedome to order their actions and dispose of their possessions and persons as they think fit, within the bounds of the law of nature, without asking leave or dependency upon the will of any other man" (locke)

with the only caveat being that love throws a wrench into the mix.

Mageth

there are many scholarships for minorities and women that only require that they be that....namely a woman or a minority. the prospects are rather grim for us lowly white males. this is what i mean by the desire for equality lead to inequality.

This is BS, IMO. Name me ONE scholarship that "only requires" a recipient to be a woman or minority.

My wife is a HS counselor and so knows a good deal about college scholarships and other forms of financial assistance. Every year, there are many scholarships available to ALL, regardless of ethnicity or gender. Yes, there are some reserved for certain ethnicities and genders, but the majority are open. And every year there are many scholarships (and other forms of financial assistance) that are unclaimed because people don't make the effort to apply for them.

Along the sports scholarship lines. There are women's sports scholarships, e.g. in soccer, softball, basketball and tennis. They tend not to be as lucrative (or prevalent) as men's sports scholarships (the "big three" being football, basketball and baseball). A court ruling a couple of years ago (I can't remember the name or specifics of it) tried to "even the field" for women in sports by requiring colleges to more equally provide scholarships/sports programs for women.

The bottom line is, if a student excels at academics and/or sports, there is almost always a finanicial assistance option available, regardless of ethnicity or gender.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Mageth

i believe that women as well as men should exist in "a state of perfect freedome to order their actions and dispose of their possessions and persons as they think fit, within the bounds of the law of nature, without asking leave or dependency upon the will of any other man" (locke)

Fine. What is your interpretation, then, of what Locke meant by "within the bounds of the law of nature?" Depending on how you define the "law of nature," that could leave a big loophole in your belief.

Mageth

likewise no man is going to receive a scholarship for being a single mother.

Umm...I'd bet no woman is either.

Queen of Swords

Equality of the sexes : that a person not be discriminated against on the basis of his or her gender.

Where's the trouble?

So should women be allowed to speak in church or to have authority over a man? In a marriage between a fairly stupid man and a very intelligent woman, who is in charge?

Sure. Men have penises and women have vaginas. What differences did you have in mind that would have a significant impact on the way in which women and men are treated, both in the environment of the workplace (remember what Paul said about authority?) and in a marriage?

Please, invoke whatever you feel is necessary to justify the claims you originally made.

What do role models (male or female) have to do with treating women equally?

What does this mean?

And what is the "complex idea" taught by saying "A man plants a seed and a woman incubates that seed"?

That men are active in reproduction whereas women are passive?
That life is carried in the male "seed", whereas the woman just provides a warm place for the seed to grow?

Then why even bring it into the debate?

I don't know what your definition of "in culture" is, but one of the things I hold dear, whether in culture or out of it, is science, and your seed-field metaphor isn't at all scientific.

So perhaps God isn't actually a male, and Jesus's taking the form of a man wasn't so much a recognition of the fact that men are destined to be teachers and spiritual advisors, as a consequence of living in a patriarchal culture.

Therefore, now that we realize that women are just as capable of the intellectual accomplishments of men, women should be permitted to teach and even to have authority over men, if they earn it. What's your stand on this issue?

If you believe that one gender, solely on the basis of its sex chromosomes and genitalia, is superior to the other, and if you put your theories into practice against the "inferior" gender, this is discrimination. You can talk about symbology until the moo-cows come home, but it doesn't change the fact that sexual discrimination is still discrimination, whether Paul puts his rubber stamp on it or not.

The more one becomes a misogynist like Paul and supports the subjugation of women? The more one realizes that as a woman, one is inherently inferior and needs to practice "submissiveness" and "be saved in childbearing"?

What a hideous little doctrine.

One could, but one's not going to, since it's an absurd point of view.

Yes, they were also concerned about pollution and the environment; they worried about the evils of junk food, the war on drugs and the threat of nuclear war, not to mention the rising cost of education.

By all means, point out this "insight into human nature" that we do not have today.

By this token, the only way to determine if any writer has merit is to "live according to dictates" of what he or she writes. So you can't dismiss any religious book without trying to live according to that religion. I could spend my whole life practising different religions, especially since I have no guarantee that christian writers had any more insight than, say, L. Ron Hubbard.

Odd. That's the impression your seed-field analogy produced. Perhaps you should use better symbology in the future.

Neither did Paul, but he managed to say a lot about marriage and women - much of which I don't agree with.

If it's bullshit, do you expect anyone to follow it? Do you even expect such a view to be treated with respect?

I already know my role in life; it may not be a role of which Paul or other sexists would approve, but I'm happy with it.

Deputy42

i doubt you will find a scholarship who's that is explicitly intended for "white students who wish to enter the engineering field"

yet there are parallel scholarships for "black students who wish to enter the engineering field"
rascism pawned off as equality......

brighid

No one is demanding that we make as much as men as an absolute maxim. However, if a women with the same (or greater educational and experience level) of a man, performing the same job as a man gets paid 25% less then a man for no other reason then ingrained social constructs of gender inequality – I would say this is a bad thing.

You, and so many others fail to realize that we want the same opportunities – no more and no less. We do not want to be kept out of things simply because we are female. Scholarships are based on need. If you are white and your income is the same as a black person you will qualify for scholarships. Because of the discrimination that lasted for hundreds of years in the country and became an institution we have had to develop programs that right some of the wrongs. Many places do need to be put in a situation where they don’t discriminate against minorities.

I didn’t get scholarships to college either until after I moved out of my parents home and became an independent student. The financial aid I got was based primarily upon my income. At the time it happened to be pretty low and the tuition at my college was 20 grand a year. Between grants and scholarships – such as for good grades I got a lot of funding and paid only 3 grand of that taken out in student loans. I pay that back at $45 p/month. And I a white and I went to a predominantly black college. I got just as much, and in some cases more then the black and other ethnically diverse students at my school.

Also, as a white male in American society you average between 50% and 75% greater earning capacity then minorities and women do, unless of course you are a white woman and then you earn about 25% more for the same job. So – it really sucks to be judged worthy or unworthy based upon your gender and the color of your skin. And although you won’t get any sympathy because you are at the top of the American social ladder, you can now empathize with those of us who have experienced similar and worse discrimination on a regular basis. And how unfortunate that you have to work hard and earn your degree. Be thankful, in this economy you have a job that affords you the ability to pay for your college. Millions are without jobs.

So, blacks, minorities and women earn less and therefore cannot afford as much because of their status and therefore they are afforded more financial aid because of it. How unfair to you and all the other white males that could afford to put themselves through college!! Oh, the injustice of it all.


Brighid

brighid

Nor is it racism pawned off as equality. The scholarships realize that blacks are lacking in a many fields and in order to help those less fortunate because of the institutionalized racism that has held certain segments of society down they provide greater opportunities for those in greater need.

brig