Deputy42

I'm relatively new to this page, but i have noticed one interesting trend in the threads. Although this is a secular page, many of the posts focus on atheists (which im not sure is a religion or not, but for the sake of argument i'll assume its not) and theists. Yet in that vein, most if not all of the conversations and attacks focus on a specific religious tradition: christianity. No one will argue that jesus is the most influential person in western cultural development. i'm assuming that the majority of users are reading and posting from an american western perspective. within the last decade or so, american mainstream society has received a large influx of alternate or eastern viewpoints. i find very little focus upon these religious perspectives. maybe those actively attacking chritianity should be more open and label themselves acurately. many deny the christian tradition by expressing the wish to remain free to worship whatever deity they wish be he/it/she/whatever buddah allah aliens or my left big toe. i feel personal affinity to those who reject chritianity and wish to turn to other "ways of the spirit". i however question whether those people turning to another method will find the sacred they are inevitably looking for. One cannot abandon christianity because it claims to be the only way, or exclusive to those who don't follow its dictates. one characteristic of ANY religion, which is to say ALL religious traditions are whole. religion comes from latin re and ligo, ligare, which means to bind, hence we are rebinding or reconnecting with something. the entire world is explained in any religous tradition. any westerner rejecting christianity and turning to another tradtion will eventually find many, if not all, of the same faults in the dogma and practice of the religious elite.
one last thing
there is a lot of misinformation on these posts regarding biblical references. one example are those people who read revelation and say that only 144000 people are saved. they use this to say that with over 6 billion people alive today, how can one hope to be saved and goto heaven. however, reading the very next verse, one will find that indeed, a multitude ofpeople from all languages and races will be saved. my sneaking suspicion in this regard is as follows: i think people read the bible with many preconceived notions and also with a rebellious spirit. many people see a passage, immediately judge its meaning incorrectly and go on from there using this bible quote as a springboard for atheism. please people, if you are going to argue theology, and especially christianity, READ THE FREAKING THING!!!!!! a study bible is the best to start with and the price paid is easily repaid in the understanding one can gain. anyway much love, i would continue but i must go work out and stuff, these college dayz are too easy on the body.

kwigibo

i think your post is a perfect example of why a lot of people here overtly criticise christianity, you provoke it more than any other theology

Mageth

Fact is, most theists who post here are "christian" of one flavor or another. If you or anyone else desires to talk more about other religions, then start some topics on them.

ImGod

i think people read the bible with many preconceived notions and also with a rebellious spirit. many people see a passage, immediately judge its meaning incorrectly and go on from there using this bible quote as a springboard for atheism. please people, if you are going to argue theology, and especially christianity, READ THE FREAKING THING!!!!!! a study bible is the best to start with and the price paid is easily repaid in the understanding one can gain.

My study bible was this one:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-6359793-3675839" target="_blank">The New Oxford Annotated Bible : With the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical Books/New Revised Standard Version </a>

I found it to provide excellent historical background (for a bible), alternative readings, and study methods. It actually helped me apply critical thinking to the bible. The Life Application Bible I cross-referenced was too much of a stretch from the original translation. The old English of the KJV was too out of date and left way too much room for interpretation.

All said and done, they all had the same general result of driving me from christianity.

P.S. We treat Muslims the same way when they stop by. We wouldn't want them to feel left out.

Marduk

"Why Bash Christians"
1. It is the predominant Religion, at least in the USA
2. It is the only religion here that actively trys to convert (read annoy) people into joining their cult.
3. Many people here live in parts of the USA where Christianity is at its worst (South) with the full tilt in your face can't escape it bigotry, especially with kids in schools, forcing dogma down peoples throats, bashing gays etc.
4. many here have read the Bible and found it primitive and offensive. Ironage wargod jibber jabber
5. The Abrahamic religions (Christian Jew and Muslim) have caused more trouble in the world than any other I can think of, with their 'you must convert or die mentality' (I'll excuse the Jews on this point, they generally leave you alone and don't try and force their religion on you) Crusades, Inquisitions, witch burnings etc.
I have never been bothered or offended by a Hindu, Shinto or Budhist in my whole life, by comparison their world view is peaceful, harmonic and harmless, IOW I like them and they can do as they please. The ones who want a "Christian Society" (read Taliban church run state) are dangerous.

Deputy42

your honesty in expressing equal distain for all theology is very refreshing.

sandlewood

I don't know that atheists bash Christians, but they do argue with them. Perhaps it's because a lot of people here live in the US, where most people claim to be Christian; a free country where anyone can grow up to be president…as long as you're a Christian. Perhaps it's because of the Faith-Based Initiative, or because of the Christians who are trying to have their religion taught in public schools, or because it's the Bible we have to swear on to take office or be a witness, or because Christians discriminate against homosexuals, or because public holidays are based on Christian beliefs, or because we have Christian presidents like George Bush who say "I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens", or because we use money that says "In God We Trust" (meaning the Christian God), or because this is "One nation Under God", etc.

And all without any evidence to back it up. But you still feel they are wrong and are going to Hell, true? What you call rebellious sprit, I call critical thinking.

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: sandlewood ]</p>

Deputy42

1) it is an unpopular viewpoint, but america was founded by christians essentially for christians. anyone who studies the writings of our founding fathers especially jefferson will find that aside from the bible, the writings of john locke are of paramount importance. jefferson asserted all men were created equal, yet he was a slaveholder. the fact that relgious tolerance has been extended to all creeds (as it should be), doesn't change the fact that the beauty of american philosophical and political thought is based on biblical precepts.
2) i think you will find evangelism is not an exclusive christian ethic. prisons today are flooded today with the koran.....the whole idea of religion is teaching others. every religion practices evangelism. native american herb healers will certainly be the last to actively convert you, yet he will talk to you in terms of his own perspective and religious sentiment. again, no other religion differs in this regard.
3)many people find dogma distainful, yet dogma exists also in every religious tradition. the importance of dogma and its pernicious effects fade away when the true goal of religious practice is acheived. no one enjoys bigotry, yet tough love is still love. its an interesting dillemma.
4)the earliest parts of the bible were written many thousands of years ago. were one to take a survey of the writings of cultures in that time period, he would find many of the readings archaic. the mystery is that although much has changed around us, little about us has changed. the live of a person living in rome 2000years ago compared to many today would appear very similar. of course they didn't have internet, but the human condition and the politics have remained the same.
5)again, religious zealotry is not a new concept nor is it exclusive to "abrahamic traditions" read the bhagavad gita, the first chapter is about war. in early china, taoists buddhists and, while it is not a "religion", confucianists competed for new converts. anyone familiar with buddhist thought will acknowledge that anyone who hears the dharma will "enter the stream", and all people are buddhists, they just don't know it yet. additionally while hindu theology may seem very open and inviting, the reality of castes show that hinduism practiced en masse is equally dogmatic. the concept of a christian utopia is intriguing, but the lesson taught from history is equally concrete. mixing religion and politics is a dangerous adventure, and there is not enough space to treat the topic here. contrast the staunch atheism of socialism taken to the extreme and the tyranny found in theocracies, you find the american experiment a miracle indeed. all you people who say that because of the separation of church and state america is secular are sadly mistaken. it is a testament to the tolerance of great men, washington, franklin, adams, jefferson,(all of whom to my knowledge were christians) that we enjoy freedom today.

Deputy42

no i don't necessarily believe people are going to hell. much like god is described as a living god, hell is a living hell. i tend to think that hell is an adjective for a state of mind and a way of living. living life according to righteousness leads to an abundant life. life according to sin leads to death and iniquity. however, many people throughout history have believed that all men will come to know christs authority in the end, and all will be saved. it borders on heresy, but it just might be the truth.
the rebellious spirit was not a slam on critical thinking. i simply meant that if you go into something believing that it is wrong, little will suffice to change your mind. often people, i count myself among them, have read a bible passage, thought it was crap and went on reading and studying those things that affirmed the feeling that i originally had. rarely if ever do people go back and read the bible with the right perspective and the right mindset. its much like studying jazz with miles davis. you can't goto the first lesson with your trumpet thinking you are going to play on "kind of blue" if you leave the first lesson not having learned a great deal you might think that miles wasn't a good teacher and further that he cannot play himself. only by going back to the lessons with the right frame of mind, and hours of practice ON YOUR OWN TIME will you acquire the ability to play jazz. its the same with many on these pages who read the bible, reject it, then go on to other intellectual persuits that "prove" the bible wrong. many of the attitudes promoted here merely betray the ignorance of the writer with regard to the bible.

waxm

Deputy- please people, if you are going to argue theology, and especially christianity, READ THE FREAKING THING!!!!!! a study bible is the best to start with and the price paid is easily repaid in the understanding one can gain. anyway much love, i would continue but i must go work out and stuff, these college dayz are too easy on the body.

Wax- One problem is that many of us have read the Bible!
It is an easy book to read and understand, a "Bible study" may be required for an idiot that can not follow simple text, but it is much more effective at pretending the script says something that it does not.
This can be frustrating for an intelligent person who can think for themselves.

As for why Christianity is "picked on", there are a number of reasons for this.

1: For the most part, We have not had Muslims come to our door and shove their pamphlets in our face, only "Christians" have done this so far.
2: Our daily life has not been forced to undergo referances to Allah, yet "God" is everywhere.
Our government declares his presence at every meeting, our money claims that we actively praise him, and for the most part, our neighbors and family members shove him in our face.
3: Christians claim that all of mankind belong to a family, yet, some of those family members will be punished and hated as a reward for membership in this great brotherhood.
Christians claim a close relationship with a loving father, then claim that same father will caste us into hell for an eternity of pain and suffering, simply because he has refused to show himself to us!

So why do many of us have a problem with Christianity? Hmmm....I guess in one way, there may be some jealousy involved, "Why can I not see God if he/she can?"

But in a larger sense, it is anger. We see one aspect in our associates lives where they are actively encouraged to believe the unsupportable, and we are told to do the same!
As I said, many of us have read the Bible, a number of times, often in desperation because we have seriously wanted to find the truth.
The truth is right there in plain language:

Four different stories of Jesus' supposed resurrection, four stories that can not be true, because they can not be describing the same singular incident.Matthew 28:1-9, Mark 16:1-10, Luke 24:1-9, John 20:1-18

We read how Jesus was born of a virgin named Mary, yet the only person who could have relayed this story (Mary herself), does not even inform her other four sons or daughters, according to Biblical scripture!Matthew 13:54-58

We read how Jesus is not identified by name (Jesus as a name, was as common as John is today), the last name of his father is never given in scripture so that he can be researched as a historical person, so that claims can be cross referenced.

We read how Jesus claimed that the end would come in the generation that he was talking to, yet many generations have passed to prove beyond a doubt that he was wrong!Matthew 16:28

We read how John the baptist supported the concept that Jesus was the son of God, and baptised him.
Yet we then read that John sent his servents from prison (a prison that he never got out of alive, so we know that he supposedly baptised Jesus before his imprisonment) to ask Jesus if he was the one, as if he had never met him and heard God declare the fact!
Matthew 3:14-17, 11:2-3

We read how Saul/Paul, who never met Jesus while he was alive, yet still managed to instill most of the dogma in modern Christianity, hated women and told them to keep their mouths shut in church!I Corinthians 14:34-35

So again, we have read the Bible, you however, at least apparently, have not!