eldar1011

Ultron,

Thank you for your responses. I think there's nothing left for us to discuss. I understand your position, though I do not necessarily agree with it.

I appreciate your support of democracy, representative government and free speech. But, I don't believe those are the relevant issues here. As I never stated you should not be *allowed* to lobby for your cause, I simpley wanted to know *why* do you believe homosexuality is morally reprehensible. But, I'm afraid we reached an impasse on that topic.

In my opinion, if all that is needed for a law is a sufficient majority and some vague undefined morality, then society can be greatly harmed. The redhead arguement from Howay the Toon is a good example.

Ultron

Understood. And thank you, too. You've been exemplary here with your questions and comments.

Essentially I'm not so interested in discussing where I get my morals from, or on the topic of myself, nor do I ask others where they get their beliefs from, etc. I would rather just focus on the issues rather than my personal life.

It's a good example of someone having a belief, but as silly as it might seem to others, there's no reason they should be forced to believe anything different. For example, I'm anti-homosexual but I wouldn't try to prevent someone from speak their mind on the subject or vote their beliefs.

You would readily agree with me that the freedom of speech is good, and you would think it would be bad for someone to be silenced for their beliefs. Well we have legislation right now, and because we think that's good, we both support it.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Jat
Yes, it is a lack on your understanding. It is like saying that evolution isn't a fact because they haven't found the missing link yet, even though there is plenty of evidence that shows it is true.

Here's a mention of the study Look at the 7th paragraph. Unfortunately, I can't find the original.

Jat

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jat
[B]Originally posted by Ultron

Please humor me and give me a link to it. I can't even tell most people apart yet, much less the threads.

Male Sexual Attraction to Pubescent and Adolescent Girls:
A Matter of Evolution, Not Perversion.
---------------------------------------------------------
n.s. aristoff

[This is still copyritten. My previous attempt to find it on the web failed.]

I did give complete notion of who it came from under fair use. I didn't exactly get it off of the net. I got it from when I was on the independent BBS networks before the Internet was so popular and cheap to use.

eldar1011

But, it wasn't about forcing some to believe differently. It was about whether or not redheads should be prevented from walking down the street because Howay (hypothetically) thinks redheads are bad. I don't care if he dislikes redheads. I do care if he thinks they should be kept from walking down the street by law, however.

Again, this isn't about changing your beliefs or keeping you from speaking your mind. It's about whether or not laws should be based on little more than some vague morality that results in discrimination.

At any rate, I had to say this...I know, I know...I keep saying that we have nothing left to discuss. But, I can't let some things just lie.

BTW: You wouldn't happen to be encased within an adamantium shell, would you?

Jat

Originally posted by Ultron

That's still slightly loaded, unless I am not understanding what you mean by legal in this context. It's not a matter of legal merits. Legally, there are no merits to any arguement you or I make. They just are. It's a moral arguement that I am making. The gist of it is that I think homosexuality is immoral by my standard. IOW they are bad. I have similar standards for other non-heterosexual preferences.

You are still basing this belief on ignorance instead of facts.

All I can say is that it is my personal belief that non-heterosexual intercourse is bad.

Why is it bad?

Jat

Originally posted by Ultron

This is an unfounded claim as well as a red herring issue. You still haven't answered my question: Do homosexuals prefer to have sex with members of the same gender?

How is this relevant? And why does it make it "bad"?

And some athiests/agnostic. Not everyone has the same worldview as you. There are some religious people who don't mind homosexuality either.

They are in a minority.

You're telling me this? Heed your own advice. The topic isn't whether or not you think I'm ignorant or stupid, but whether or not sexual preferences are genetic.

You are confusing how one has sex with whom one has sex. It is not the same thing.

You can't or won't even answer the question, is homosexuality a sexual preference. Instead you try to find ways to assert whether or not I'm competent enough to discuss this.

Being homo or heterosexual is not a choice. Not all perferences are voluntary.

Wouldn't you rather just discuss this instead of making personal attacks?

What personal attack? You really have a persecution complex.

Jat

Originally posted by Ultron

Can we stick to the topic of homosexuality and whether or not it's genetic?

It is primarily genetic.

That doesn't mean that it's good. Again this is a morality question.

All that is meant is that homosexually is not "unnatural" as you are trying to make it out to be.

I disagree. This country first of all was never a theocracy.

Until quite recently it was one in all but name. I.E. "One Nation Under GOD...", "In GOD We Trust.."

Second of all this is not a thread on abortion. Stick to the subject at hand please.

You are the one who brought it up.

No but fish don't reproduce homosexually.

Some breeds of fish can change gender if there are too few of one around. Some amphibians can do this as well.

This isn't about nature and fish. This is about what's natural for humans.

Why isn't it natual for humans? Homosexuality occurs in nature and humans are a part of it.

It's not irrelevant. Certainly one such as yourself can answer a simple question like that, right? Do homosexuals prefer members of the same gender or don't they?

You seem to think that all perferences are voluntary.

Jat

Originally posted by Ultron

By your moral standard. Religious people who would argue the opposite, too.

Atheists are less likely to commit crimes and use violence than theists are. That is positive morality by any standard.

Jat

Thanks for the article.