seebs

I'm not sure what you mean by "dislocation from everything we know about the physical universe". Keep in mind, most people who accept the supernatural do so based on specific claims, which give them *some* information. (Or at least, which we *think* gives us information.) So, we have some basis for reasoning and drawing conclusions.

Hmm. You're probably right about the laws; I'm unsure. It is possible, in my mind, that the supernatural is somewhat affected by our perceptions, but I have no clear opinion on that. I do think that, if it exists, it follows laws, and thus is arguably "natural". It may some day be useful to coin a term for "natural things which are not part of the physical world except possibly in certain interactions", which might cover (if they existed) ghosts, but not God, or possibly both.

Starboy

seebs, perhaps you are unaware of the implicit definition of natural. It is all that can be detected or observed from observation. If god has any effect on the natural world that would make god natural and thus subject to observation. The problem with your line of reasoning is that there is no way to distinguish if a phenomena under observation would belong to the natural of "super" natural category. For all we know we have been observing "super" natural phenomena for some time now and have given it names like quantum mechanics and genetics.

Starboy

seebs

I am aware that there are a number of different practical definitions of it, and that there is a great deal of fun to be had equivocating on it.

That's one of many definitions.

Have you ever read _Flatland_?

It is certainly possible to define "supernatural" out of existance, in which case, fine, Christianity is no longer a supernatural religion, just a religion revolving around the natural force known as God.

Starboy

That too would loose it's charm, since explanations would become useless. Why does a ball fall - god. Why is the sky blue - god. Where did we come from - god. At that point you begin to see the necessity to develope useful descriptors and then god becomes unecessary. Gee, that is kinda funny. Sounds like the history of the progression of knowledge from the first century to the present.

Starboy

seebs

Sounds like exactly the same straw man, every time.

You're amazing; you have absolutely no learning curve. You can be told "no, we don't believe that", and three posts later, you're asserting that we believe that. Again, and again, and again.

If God's primary purpose were to explain curious physical phenomena, perhaps He wouldn't be useful. It's not, and He is still useful to many of us.

Stephen T-B

A “natural force known as God,” would have a measurable effect.
God, however, has no measurable effect.
If there were one, where might we look for it?
Among the laws of physics? I think it would have been detected by now, probably as the Random God Effect (RGE) – random because unless he exercised it when and how he liked, it’d be just another immutable physical law, indistinguishable from every other one.
So, having failed to find his effect there, perhaps we should look for it among those who worship him?
And hey! Here it is: the RGE in all its glory.
Can it be relied upon to protect them from disease, starvation, mental illness or catastrophe, whether caused by “act of God” or act of man? No.
Does it guarantee them salvation - even?
Not, I suggest, in any very reliable way or else the world wouldn’t be filled with religious sects all believing their members alone are saved, and everyone else is damned.
The RGE, it turns out, renders god pretty much superfluous in terms of everything except in its capacity, sometimes (but not always), to give believers a sense of comfort, inner peace and fulfilment.
Some believers become non-believers, as I did, because it didn’t even do that.

gwh00

IMO, this is incorrect. The problem is that traditional western belief assumes that God’s presence only manifest as positive effect or goodness. If , on the other hand, you interpret God as the non-dual source of all as in eastern religion you see all effect as the interplay of relative opposites within the body of God. God is all there is.
IMO the multi-dimensional physics of String theory is a perfect description of duality arising from an indescribable infinite source.That God manifest as a multi-dimensional spectrum of consciousness and awakening to the source provides liberation (salvation) from the suffering associated with the above events. The events may still occur.

Again, the problem stems from western man’s one sided view of God.

Gary

Revelation-Initiation

Stephen T-B

gwh00, we should really be talking about hell, since that was the topic raised by Volestrangler in his opening post.
That being the case, I have to say I don’t quite see the connection between the “multi-dimensional physics of String theory,” and the Christian notion of hell - though it might be my notion of it, especially if someone had me pinned against a wall and started trying to explain what it is.
The god you describe is wonderfully general, whereas the Semitic gods which Christians, Jews and Moslems worship are very specific, and are attributed with doing specific things, like curing illness, saving lives, forgiving sins and damning souls.
Your god is so all-purpose that discussing its existence and characteristics is just about pointless: it happens to be a god I don’t have any objections to because it doesn’t encourage people to think they are saved because they say the Lord’s Prayer wearing black felt slippers, whereas people who say it when wearing green Wellies are not only destined for hell, but should be hurried on their way there with the help of a hand axe.
I wish you contentment in your beliefs - and I am sure you will find it.
But as far as a Christian or a Moslem or a Jew is concerned, you’re most likely damned.

gwh00

This is my original comment.

I am sure that I am dammed in the eyes of the fundamentalist. However, it is the rigid beliefs of the fundamentalism that is the false prophet and anti-christos of Revelation and it is the Christos or anointing with the essence of God that provides salvation.

Their understanding of God is based on an archaic paternalistic hierarchy that has been propagated to the ignorant in order to protect power and position. They use the fear of hell and damnation as motivation to join the club.

The fundamentalist Jews where Anti-Christ in the time of Jesus and the fundamentalist Christians are Anti-Christ during the current time.

Gary
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Revelation-Initiation