Volestrangler

In <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=001380&p=3" target="_blank">this</a> thread, Frivolous made the following statement:

I have a question for you, and for any other theists that would care to attempt an answer.

What is your best evidence for the existence of Hell?

I mean, it's your ultimate argument for converting people. Believe in XYZ (depending upon the denomination), or be tortured in Hell forever. It's the Christian way. If all else fails, use threats.

Given that it is such an oft-used threat/argument, I challenge you to prove that Hell exists. As those making the positive assertion, the responsibility for providing evidence falls upon your shoulders, meaning if someone replies "prove Hell doesn't" exist, I will respond by asking you to prove that there isn't an invisible UFO in the tail of the Hale-Bopp comet.

Babylon Sister

If you don't mind Muriel, I'd like to add:

And no "Beacuse the bible says so" arguments.

Janaya

Muriel,

You may want to ask your responders to define their hell before attempting to prove its existence. Christians have very diverse ideas when it comes to hell. Some see it as only a separation from God. Others see it as a spiritual torment. Still others believe that if you do not go to heaven then you simply cease to exist. And last but not least there are those that believe that it is a physical place that you actually roast in for eternity. I'm sure there are other definitions as well.

Peace,
Janaya

Volestrangler

To my original post I would like, on the advice of my last two respondents, to add the following qualifiers.

1) Define what your concept of Hell actually is.

and

2) No "'cause the Bible says so arguments."

Thank you.

Marduk

"Hell is the absence of reason"

who said that?

Bobzammel

It seems that the concept of heaven and hell only emerged after the exile; if one looks at the Penteauch for instance, God's rules are based on Earthly rewards and punishments, not those of the afterlife. It states specifically that those who follow the law will get good harvests and bountiful offspring. As for those who don't, they get kicked out, stoned, or forced to eat their own flesh. This is the first system of real rewards & punishments.
References are made to the Grave or Sheol, which is translated as hell in some versions.
The concept of hell, and to a lesser degree heaven(Heaven is in the Old Testament, but it was never referred to as a destination for men, simply God's throne), seem imported from other religions--almost every religion has had a hell of some kind. And the Punishments involve fire.
I have a theory on the origin of the popular conception of hell. When people die, they are (mostly) buried in the Earth. Then people say magma often come from the earth in the form of volcanic lava and magma. Hence one can assert that in the Earth--where the grave is--there is a "Lake of fire".

Frivolous

Because the Bible... oh ok.

Well proving the existence of Hell will always be impossible, but i guess my thought path goes something like:

suppose God is true &gt;&gt; suppose then that the Bible must be true &gt;&gt; Suppose then that Hell exists

not in reverse order.

And also the fact that theres all that magma downstairs and geothermal energy, so i suppose it wouldnt be a very nice place to be.

Volestrangler

To summarize the debate so far.

Frivolous' definition of Hell: Lake of Fire.

Best evidence for the existence of Hell: Bible.

Implied location of Hell: Center of the Earth.

Chain of thinking required to accept evidence: Believe in Christian God &gt;&gt; Believe Bible is Inerrant &gt;&gt; Believe in Hell because Bible says it exists.

Is that a fair summation, Frivolous? I just want to be clear.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Muriel Volestrangler ]</p>

Philosoft

Put me down for one who thinks Frivolous is being disingenuous and/or trolling here. I wouldn't waste my time if I were you, Muriel.

Goliath

Frivolous,

Unproven assertion.

This is where your argument fails. Your argument will continue to fail until you prove that your god exists.

Sincerely,

Goliath