Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hail · 12-11-2002, 06:57 PM

I think man has created God in mans image and that is why we spend so much time and effort trying to resolve arguments about how the greatest love is so ruthless in his ways. I think these beliefs are what has lead to humans being so intolerant and brutal towards their fellow human. They are trying to do good as they have reasond it with these reasonings and conclusions based on the belief that God is also brutal towards those who do not give God what he "wants". I think this is only because this is the way humans react when they figure they need something and the posser of that thing does not make it available to them. I am aware that this is not how the Bible and Religion has explained it but I will still venture out to investigate this especially when I consider that Jesus was executed when he challenged the accepted views in his day. I think this can stand to reason and I would love to DISCUSS it with you.

Amie · 12-11-2002, 07:05 PM

Hi Hail

Quote:

I think these beliefs are what has lead to humans being so intolerant and brutal towards their fellow human.

what about the people of the world who have never read or heard of the bible? surely these things can not be attributed to that?

Our thinking is influenced by many things, familial teachings, society, culture, life's experiences and on and on...
however I do think that people are influenced in many ways by religion and doctrinal creeds...

Hail · 12-11-2002, 07:15 PM

Hail Aime, I did not mention that I do think nearly all religions of whatever creed have fallen into this error. And I do mean error and not sin. I also believe it is understandable that it has happened. The problem now is that it has risen to fever pitch and is threatening the percieved security of everyone on Earth.

Hail · 12-11-2002, 07:17 PM

Let me just add that this belief is firmly rooted in secular life as well, even among Atheists.

galiel · 12-11-2002, 07:20 PM

Perhaps the solution is to recognize the moral bankruptcy of religion and become a secular humanist and stop hating and killing and dividing the world into "right" (i.e., believers in my faith) and "wrong" (i.e., everyone else).

Certainly the track record would indicate that organized religion has not only failed to make better people out of those who follow it, but has actually made them worse. Those who are free of the yoke of religion tend to be less violent, less hateful, less criminal and less murderous. In fact, there is a one-to-one correlation between the level of religious zealotry and the level of anti-social destructiveness.

Surely that should tell you something.

Amie · 12-11-2002, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hail:
<strong>Hail Aime, I did not mention that I do think nearly all religions of whatever creed have fallen into this error. And I do mean error and not sin. I also believe it is understandable that it has happened. The problem now is that it has risen to fever pitch and is threatening the percieved security of everyone on Earth.</strong>

Hi Hail
can you elaborate on your sentence of "It has risen to fever pitch and is threatening the perceived security of everyone on Earth"?

Are you simply suggesting that we are destroying our own security by following the contexts of doctrinal creeds...

Hail..I peeked into your profile to see what your beliefs are and I think your basic beliefs are groovy...
I would say love and knowledge are everything though, but well said

Amie~

lpetrich · 12-11-2002, 07:41 PM

A certain Xenophanes had noted this important fact ~2500 years ago:

Quote:

(11) Homer and Hesiod have ascribed to the gods all things that are a shame and a disgrace among mortals, stealings and adulteries and deceivings of one another. R. P. 99.

(12) Since they have uttered many lawless deeds of the gods, stealings and adulteries and deceivings of one another. R. P. ib.

(14) But mortals deem that the gods are begotten as they are, and have clothes like theirs, and voice and form. R. P. 100.

(15) Yes, and if oxen and horses or lions had hands, and could paint with their hands, and produce works of art as men do, horses would paint the forms of the gods like horses, and oxen like oxen, and make their bodies in the image of their several kinds. R. P. ib.

(16) The Ethiopians make their gods black and snub-nosed; the Thracians say theirs have blue eyes and red hair. R. P. 100 b.

(From <a href="http://plato.evansville.edu/public/burnet/ch2bi.htm" target="_blank">here</a>).

Hail · 12-11-2002, 09:11 PM

Re:Hi Hail
can you elaborate on your sentence of "It has risen to fever pitch and is threatening the perceived security of everyone on Earth"?
Are you simply suggesting that we are destroying our own security by following the contexts of doctrinal creeds...

I'm sorry I just had to go to the corner store but I'm ready to carry on.

In earlier times let's say 100 years ago even and maybe less. most people were not so attuned to the idea of applying Violence to solve their problems. I'm aware that many horrid things has been recorded in our history but among the masses there was not the kind of acceptance the there is now with the media dispensing the imagery to and desensitising huge amounts of people. Add to that technology and know-how. That has made a deadly cocktail for horror on a scale never before possible. As it is now there is no "percieved" security and safety, what litte of that we had left was blotted out on Sept 11. So the issue now is not how to preserve a sence of security but how to get it back. Religion has failed to lead people to where there is personal security in the world and will have to be re examined and adjusted to be useful in helping our species to achieve this in my view. I say percieved because our reality is just our perception and ultimately we are always safe whereas the soul's erternity goes. But if we wish to continue as a human race, humanity is destructable. That is how I see it.

Amie · 12-11-2002, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hail:
I'm sorry I just had to go to the corner store but I'm ready to carry on.

lol...thats ok...what'd you buy?

Quote:

Religion has failed to lead people to where there is personal security in the world and will have to be re examined and adjusted to be useful in helping our species to achieve this in my view.

I agree that there are some negatives in any organized religion however Hail, do you see any positives to religion at all?

Quote:

I say percieved because our reality is just our perception

I agree that perceptions may become realities but there also exists an outside objective "reality" seperate from perception (the sky is blue for example)

Hail · 12-11-2002, 10:47 PM

I do see postitves in Religion. It worked to hold the world in a certain kind of focus towards loves importance throughout ages. It's message needs to be deepened and expanded for a different era though. In the way i see it, we had decided that God wants something from us because natural forces seemed to have us at it's mercy. The world man saw around him was not something he could control. We reasoned that this controlls us and when something like a storm ect hit It was then reasoned that it was ticked, whatever this thing is. So we started to try to do things to appease the thing, Gave it a name and started off real crudely at this realising of God. Babies were burnt to a crisp to "please" God. God will never directly interfare with this because LIFE, FREEDOM, LOVE are that which make up life anything else would be just some weird enviornment to put souls of God into. These beliefs became codified and developed into what we have as religion today. The concept that morality doesnt change as time goes on brought us a Human who carried the Christ energy. He chaged the way things were going at the time by unlocking that blockage then but we still have hald firm that thngs are morally wrong instead of incorrect with a guilt feeling attached to it. Possibly a throwback to whend we didnt join with the clan to appease God. This has really clouded our thinking. There is a feeling tha man can change the nature of God by giving or not giving a certain thing and that thing is different in every culture. When we were seperated by vast spaces it was ok to say we are the ones who are rihgt and all the world will bow down to our God. But we dont have the luxry of keeping up this sort of business entwined as we are and as we are ment to be. That is how i see it.

By perception I am refering to the nature that we percieve around us, the birds, trees and so. I am talaking about it from the view that we are not our bodies but are using it as a tool along with the mind which is driven by a Soul or piece of God forming a human being, Soul so being. in the realm of the sole is reality and this is something God made up. We don't need it but we love it and had better make it work.

And I got tropicana juice, Yum....

12-11-2002, 06:57 PM	#1
Hail Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 60	man has created God in mans image I think man has created God in mans image and that is why we spend so much time and effort trying to resolve arguments about how the greatest love is so ruthless in his ways. I think these beliefs are what has lead to humans being so intolerant and brutal towards their fellow human. They are trying to do good as they have reasond it with these reasonings and conclusions based on the belief that God is also brutal towards those who do not give God what he "wants". I think this is only because this is the way humans react when they figure they need something and the posser of that thing does not make it available to them. I am aware that this is not how the Bible and Religion has explained it but I will still venture out to investigate this especially when I consider that Jesus was executed when he challenged the accepted views in his day. I think this can stand to reason and I would love to DISCUSS it with you.

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12-11-2002, 07:15 PM	#3
Hail Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 60	Hail Aime, I did not mention that I do think nearly all religions of whatever creed have fallen into this error. And I do mean error and not sin. I also believe it is understandable that it has happened. The problem now is that it has risen to fever pitch and is threatening the percieved security of everyone on Earth.

12-11-2002, 07:17 PM	#4
Hail Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 60	Let me just add that this belief is firmly rooted in secular life as well, even among Atheists.

12-11-2002, 07:20 PM	#5
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	Perhaps the solution is to recognize the moral bankruptcy of religion and become a secular humanist and stop hating and killing and dividing the world into "right" (i.e., believers in my faith) and "wrong" (i.e., everyone else). Certainly the track record would indicate that organized religion has not only failed to make better people out of those who follow it, but has actually made them worse. Those who are free of the yoke of religion tend to be less violent, less hateful, less criminal and less murderous. In fact, there is a one-to-one correlation between the level of religious zealotry and the level of anti-social destructiveness. Surely that should tell you something.

12-11-2002, 09:11 PM	#8
Hail Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 60	Re:Hi Hail can you elaborate on your sentence of "It has risen to fever pitch and is threatening the perceived security of everyone on Earth"? Are you simply suggesting that we are destroying our own security by following the contexts of doctrinal creeds... I'm sorry I just had to go to the corner store but I'm ready to carry on. In earlier times let's say 100 years ago even and maybe less. most people were not so attuned to the idea of applying Violence to solve their problems. I'm aware that many horrid things has been recorded in our history but among the masses there was not the kind of acceptance the there is now with the media dispensing the imagery to and desensitising huge amounts of people. Add to that technology and know-how. That has made a deadly cocktail for horror on a scale never before possible. As it is now there is no "percieved" security and safety, what litte of that we had left was blotted out on Sept 11. So the issue now is not how to preserve a sence of security but how to get it back. Religion has failed to lead people to where there is personal security in the world and will have to be re examined and adjusted to be useful in helping our species to achieve this in my view. I say percieved because our reality is just our perception and ultimately we are always safe whereas the soul's erternity goes. But if we wish to continue as a human race, humanity is destructable. That is how I see it.

12-11-2002, 10:47 PM	#10
Hail Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 60	I do see postitves in Religion. It worked to hold the world in a certain kind of focus towards loves importance throughout ages. It's message needs to be deepened and expanded for a different era though. In the way i see it, we had decided that God wants something from us because natural forces seemed to have us at it's mercy. The world man saw around him was not something he could control. We reasoned that this controlls us and when something like a storm ect hit It was then reasoned that it was ticked, whatever this thing is. So we started to try to do things to appease the thing, Gave it a name and started off real crudely at this realising of God. Babies were burnt to a crisp to "please" God. God will never directly interfare with this because LIFE, FREEDOM, LOVE are that which make up life anything else would be just some weird enviornment to put souls of God into. These beliefs became codified and developed into what we have as religion today. The concept that morality doesnt change as time goes on brought us a Human who carried the Christ energy. He chaged the way things were going at the time by unlocking that blockage then but we still have hald firm that thngs are morally wrong instead of incorrect with a guilt feeling attached to it. Possibly a throwback to whend we didnt join with the clan to appease God. This has really clouded our thinking. There is a feeling tha man can change the nature of God by giving or not giving a certain thing and that thing is different in every culture. When we were seperated by vast spaces it was ok to say we are the ones who are rihgt and all the world will bow down to our God. But we dont have the luxry of keeping up this sort of business entwined as we are and as we are ment to be. That is how i see it. By perception I am refering to the nature that we percieve around us, the birds, trees and so. I am talaking about it from the view that we are not our bodies but are using it as a tool along with the mind which is driven by a Soul or piece of God forming a human being, Soul so being. in the realm of the sole is reality and this is something God made up. We don't need it but we love it and had better make it work. And I got tropicana juice, Yum....

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