Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JERDOG · 07-10-2003, 06:40 PM

OK guys help me find the fallacies in thsi one. I will post my percpective after it..

Quote:

The Bible says to have an answer for why you believe; to those who ask you. This is a good example of an answer to one of the most common reasons sinners give for ignoring God and His goodness.

A Christian went to his favorite barbershop for his weekly haircut and beard trimming. In the course of their conversation, they touched upon the subject of God. The barber said: "Look man, I don't think that God exists as you believe."

"Why do you think that?" asked the Christian.

"Well, it's so easy; you only have to go out in the street to realize that God does not exist. If God existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abused or crippled children? If God existed, there would be no suffering or pain. Would there be murder or even war? I can not imagine a loving God who would permit ANY of these things."

The Christian didn't want to enter into an argument and could think of no immediate response to the barber's logic. The barber finished his job and the Christian fellow left the shop. The moment he stepped out the door he saw a man sitting on the curb whose long hair and beard were in need of a barber's attention (It looked so long, dirty and untidy).

The Christian turned and reentered the barber shop and said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers absolutely do not exist!"

"How can you say that barbers do not exist?" exclaimed the barber. "Well, I'm here and I'm a barber. I just cut your hair!!!"

"No!" the Christian exclaimed. "Barbers do not exist; because if they did exist, there would be no people with long hair and stringy beard like that man out there in the street, sitting on the curb."

"Oh, barbers do indeed exist! What happens is that people first have to come to me. They seek me out and find me!"

"You are exactly right!" affirmed the Christian. "That's exactly the point. God does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

Here's what I find wrong with it.

1.)People choose to have beards while people do not choose to suffer in most circumstances.

2.) Barbers can be proven to exist where as god cannot.

3.)According to this analogy, god sees and is aware of the suffering but does nothing about it unless people seek him. But then it is claimed that he is benevolent.

If I am aware of a man injured and incapacitated I will help him or get help for him. Would it be virtuous if I knew he was hurt and did nothing and walked away just because he didn't ask me? But that is exactly what we can deduce from the analogy about gods ways.

Rhaedas · 07-10-2003, 06:45 PM

Plus usually you have to pay for a haircut.

But I suppose they'd compare that to donations...round and round...

The barber should then volunteer to trim the guy's hair, and then ask why god can't volunteer a few miracles without being asked, as he did.

Analogies are usually flawed by their very nature anyway.

Corwin · 07-10-2003, 07:28 PM

People don't choose to go to a barber shop and end up not getting a haircut.

BioBeing · 07-10-2003, 07:44 PM

A barber will cut your hair the way you ask him to (er - usually).

NonHomogenized · 07-10-2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

"Well, it's so easy; you only have to go out in the street to realize that God does not exist. If God existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abused or crippled children? If God existed, there would be no suffering or pain. Would there be murder or even war? I can not imagine a loving God who would permit ANY of these things."

The Christian didn't want to enter into an argument and could think of no immediate response to the barber's logic. The barber finished his job and the Christian fellow left the shop. The moment he stepped out the door he saw a man sitting on the curb whose long hair and beard were in need of a barber's attention (It looked so long, dirty and untidy).

The Christian turned and reentered the barber shop and said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers absolutely do not exist!"

"How can you say that barbers do not exist?" exclaimed the barber. "Well, I'm here and I'm a barber. I just cut your hair!!!"

"No!" the Christian exclaimed. "Barbers do not exist; because if they did exist, there would be no people with long hair and stringy beard like that man out there in the street, sitting on the curb."

"Wow, what a stupid argument," the barber replied "I see where this is going. So, would you agree that some people like their hair long?"

"Well, yes" admitted the christian

"And do you know anyone who wants to suffer the horrible things that go on in the world?" continued the barber.

"no... but that's not the point. The point is that there are people with long hair." said the christian

"Assuming that I didn't just address that, which I did, there is the detail that you purport that god is omnipotent. I'm not. I can't remedy everyone's 'long hair' problem; god is supposed to be able to. Furthermore, I do this as a career, not out of the goodness of my heart. I don't give everyone I can free haircuts, because I have to make a living. Is this why god allows horrific suffering?" the barber queried

"La la la la la! I'm not listening!" cried the christian, who then stuck his fingers in his ears and ran out of the barbershop.

Shadowy Man · 07-10-2003, 10:18 PM

So, how would one explain why babies and small children suffer and/or die?

Guess they chose not to seek God out, eh?

AquaVita · 07-10-2003, 11:16 PM

I think this will get some better play in here.

trillian · 07-10-2003, 11:21 PM

Here's where I see this one fall to pieces...

Barbers have limited resources. God has unlimited resources. So the two cannot be compared by their works (of lack thereof).

There is also no evidence that God is showing any special favors to believers who pray to him vs. the godless heathens who don't. In fact statistically the "godless" people are less likely to be in jail, less likely to get a divorce, are more educated and generally more successful. So if that's God's punishment for not seeking him out, I'll take it!

edit to add:
A better analogy may be all the doctors of the world sitting in their offices. They see sick people all around them but they'll only heal the ones who come to their office and pay even if they have all the time and resources to help every single person in the world. If the sick and dying cannot bother to trek over to the doctors' office, then I guess they deserve to suffer and die. Bad, bad, god..um I mean doctors!!

trillian

Wyz_sub10 · 07-11-2003, 06:14 AM

I missed the memo that says that barbers are responsible for cutting everyone's hair.

God's supposed resposibility to mankind is not analogous to a barber's responsibility to people with long hair.

Jamie_L · 07-11-2003, 11:20 AM

It's not the omnipotence claim so much as the omnibenevolence claim.

An omnibenevolent barber would go wandering the earth looking for every person who could not afford a hair cut, and cut their hair. He would go to the man on the street, and if the man was suffering (because he didn't want long hair, but could do nothing about it), he would cut the man's hair for him.

Barbers, like all people, however, are not omnibenevolent.

The problem is stating that it is benevolent to sit back and allow suffering that you could prevent, just because the people in question aren't asking for your help. As mentioned previously, no one would consider this even partially benevolent behavior for a human being. Why is it an acceptible definition of omnibenevolence in an omnipotent diety?

Jamie

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07-10-2003, 06:45 PM	#2
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	Plus usually you have to pay for a haircut. But I suppose they'd compare that to donations...round and round... The barber should then volunteer to trim the guy's hair, and then ask why god can't volunteer a few miracles without being asked, as he did. Analogies are usually flawed by their very nature anyway.

07-10-2003, 07:28 PM	#3
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	People don't choose to go to a barber shop and end up not getting a haircut.

07-10-2003, 07:44 PM	#4
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	A barber will cut your hair the way you ask him to (er - usually).

07-10-2003, 10:18 PM	#6
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	So, how would one explain why babies and small children suffer and/or die? Guess they chose not to seek God out, eh?

07-10-2003, 11:16 PM	#7
AquaVita Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Dallas Posts: 4,351	I think this will get some better play in here.

07-10-2003, 11:21 PM	#8
trillian Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: OC Posts: 1,620	Here's where I see this one fall to pieces... Barbers have limited resources. God has unlimited resources. So the two cannot be compared by their works (of lack thereof). There is also no evidence that God is showing any special favors to believers who pray to him vs. the godless heathens who don't. In fact statistically the "godless" people are less likely to be in jail, less likely to get a divorce, are more educated and generally more successful. So if that's God's punishment for not seeking him out, I'll take it! edit to add: A better analogy may be all the doctors of the world sitting in their offices. They see sick people all around them but they'll only heal the ones who come to their office and pay even if they have all the time and resources to help every single person in the world. If the sick and dying cannot bother to trek over to the doctors' office, then I guess they deserve to suffer and die. Bad, bad, god..um I mean doctors!! trillian

07-11-2003, 06:14 AM	#9
Wyz_sub10 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the land of two boys and no sleep. Posts: 9,890	I missed the memo that says that barbers are responsible for cutting everyone's hair. God's supposed resposibility to mankind is not analogous to a barber's responsibility to people with long hair.

07-11-2003, 11:20 AM	#10
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	It's not the omnipotence claim so much as the omnibenevolence claim. An omnibenevolent barber would go wandering the earth looking for every person who could not afford a hair cut, and cut their hair. He would go to the man on the street, and if the man was suffering (because he didn't want long hair, but could do nothing about it), he would cut the man's hair for him. Barbers, like all people, however, are not omnibenevolent. The problem is stating that it is benevolent to sit back and allow suffering that you could prevent, just because the people in question aren't asking for your help. As mentioned previously, no one would consider this even partially benevolent behavior for a human being. Why is it an acceptible definition of omnibenevolence in an omnipotent diety? Jamie

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