Ender

I'm debating this theist called Luther over at <a href="http://www.theologyonline.com" target="_blank">www.theologyonline.com</a> who has taken a convenient errantist position on this bible verse that God has "created" evil.

Could any of you biblical scholars with a background in hebrew dissect this verse, and analyze the apologist' position that God "raises up" evil, and that was a Hebrew idiom, not meant to be taken literally.

~WiGGiN~

Haran

I don't think this is exactly what you want, but I wholeheartedly agree with Glenn Miller of the Christian-Thinktank on this issue:

<a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html" target="_blank">Does Isaiah 45:7 teach that God created metaphysical moral evil?</a>

There is not always a one-to-one correspondence between the Hebrew and the English. In other words, "evil" (i.e. ethical evil) is not the only translation of the Hebrew word in this verse.

P.S. - I'm not a Biblical Scholar, so feel free to ignore me.

Haran

Paradisedreams2

That verse in Isaiah seems to indicate so

Egoinos

It seems fairly clear "I create evil, I the Lord do all these things" would seem to be straightforward. But some people's theologies cannot accomodate the idea that God can do evil, never mind create it, even though if God created all things, that would include evil. *Sigh*, sorry I can't point you to any specific resources.

BTW what does "Gφtterdδmmerung" mean?

--Egoinos--

(aka Atheist_Divine on TOL)

xoc

Yeah but the word "evil" had different connontations in olde England than it does today. "Evil" just more or less meant "bad"; this includes situational evil(disaster) as well as moral evil. CS Lewis argued that "moral evil" was just a "perversion of the will" and therefore it could not be called a thing as in a created thing but rather a turning of the will. It is not an object in itself.

Isaiah was VERY big on contrasting images of direct significance; "I form the light and create the darkness: I make peace and create evil." The moral use of "evil" is not the counter to Shalom, which has manifold meanings. Again when Jeremiah asked "Shall we not received evil from the Lord as well as good?" it is obvious he is talking about providential "good and evil"; that is whether something that happens in life is pleasent or unpleasent, "good or bad."

The NIV reads it:
This translation probably better fits the use today than the KJV, because of the metamorphosis of allowable meanigs of the word "evil" today. We don't say "evil luck" any more, we might say "bad happenings" (etc.)

Paradisedreams2

Heres one for you... Good contradicting power to ya

Ask them if they consider the true "begining" to be at the foot at the cross (their langage easy trap) If this is indeed true then it is GOD who IS the murderer from the begining.

Ok off the subject but I want to help you so badly! lol!

Vorkosigan

Translations differ on this one. Go to <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com" target="_blank">www.biblegateway.com</a> and look it up across several different translations. Personally the argument over the meaning of "evil" in that context doesn't move me much. According to the Canaanite sky god Ya, it personally created calamaties or disasters or physical evil (AIDS, earthquakes, tidal waves, global warming, black death, inherited diseases, etc). That's reason enough to condemn anyone. Only a truly sick being would deliberately create things that inflict torture on other sapient beings. And then brag about it!

Michael

Vorkosigan

BTW, the <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com" target="_blank">Skeptic's Annotated Bible</a> is always a fun resource of all the stupid Bible garbage, great and niggling. The section on cruelty is not-to-be-missed.

PaulCGI

(newbie here, howdy yall)
didnt see a response to this so, what the heck, here goes:
Goetter is plural for Gott; German for god. Daemmerung is twilight. as in the evening as the sun is setting.Opposite of dawn. Most of the time this is translated as "Twilight of the Gods" used frequently in conjuction with Richard Wagner's Opera Ring des Nibelungen.
(gee, can ya tell I studied German language and literature?)
l8r