Amen-Moses

It is probably the most obvious thing for such a big brained ape to work out!

I have had many many pets from a variety of species many of which had never seen another animal let alone been to sex education lessons, without exception they all knew exactly what to do if not always successful first time (watching my male rabbit shagging my male cat was priceless! Especially the look on my cats face! ).

I cannot recall having any problems at all at 7 working out what went where without any instruction although I do have an exceptionally high IQ.

You could argue that it is about education but my parents swore that I was found under a bush (closer to the truth than I realised at the time ) so I had to work it out for myself, I have been brutally honest with my brood (even though their first reaction is usually "Yeuch") and even my six year old knows the theory at least (remember him, he was the subject of the masturbation thread a while back).

Amen-Moses

Fr.Andrew

(Bree): How does a 7 year old have any concept of social stigmas?
(Fr Andrew): They learn from their parents, for the most part. I was aware, at a very early age, that you don't drink from certain water fountains because "nigras" use them.

(BRee): PS - please learn to use the quote function, it's much easier to read.
(Fr Andrew): It's not easier to use, but I'll try.

Fr.Andrew

(ronin~): There are assorted reasons for circumcisions, Fr. Andrew, (which you appear to have thrown in as an afterthought beyond the boundaries set by the OP), none of which are exploitative...
(Fr Andrew): I'd disagree with you that none of the reasons for circumcision are exploitative, but I don't want to take this thread any further off track than it is.
I suggested circumsision as a socially acceptable example of a child's "personal sovereignty, integrity and consent" being violated.
As I read it, those were your words to describe what there was about intergenerational sex which set it apart and made it illegal for a parent to give their consent to it.
So, I'll ask again--what is there about sex that differentiates it from circumcision insofar as it's being a violation of a child's "personal sovereignty, integrity and consent"?

Ronin

Well, then, we have reached an impasse regarding the issue of circumcision, as I find nothing at all exploitative of the medical procedure.

My post includes the concept of 'exploitation' regarding the personal sovereignty, integrity and consent of the child, Fr. Andrew, and since you 'do not agree' or simply cannot grasp the difference between a 'medical procedure' and a 'prurient interest' then I am sure we will remain here to repeat ourselves perpetually.

And I'll advise you again to re-read my offering, as it holds the answer that you ignore and/or do not wish to accept for your own personal reasons.

integral domain

I agree with you that children should not be admonished for touching themselves or masturbating... and should not ever be told it's "dirty."

However, if you let your child engage in sexual activity with another person, I do believe you're letting them get into a kind of relationship with another person they are not ready for. They may become too emotionally attached to (and/or possessive of)their partner... or have various other unexplainable reactions to the experience. Children under the age of 15 aren't ready the emotions behind a sexual relationship... and if you think they won't have these emotions... I think you're very wrong.

Amen-Moses

Originally posted by integral domain
However, if you let your child engage in sexual activity with another person, I do believe you're letting them get into a kind of relationship with another person they are not ready for.

Regardless of what you "let" them do they will find someone to experiment with. In the more old-fashioned multiple generation family this experimentation will be relatively (pun) safe as it will be with a sibling or cousin or other relative that primarily has the childs interests at heart. In the more modern 1.8 child family where aunts, uncles, cousins and grandparents are living at some distance then this experimentation will more than likely occur outside the family unit and therefore be more worrying as those involved will not have the childs best interests at heart. This may be why we in the west (read 1st word countries) are increasingly becoming more anxious aout this aspect of childrens development.

They may become too emotionally attached to (and/or possessive of)their partner... or have various other unexplainable reactions to the experience. Children under the age of 15 aren't ready the emotions behind a sexual relationship... and if you think they won't have these emotions... I think you're very wrong.

I doubt whether "emotions" is even the right term to use in pre-pubescents, my 6 year old cannot even comprehend an emotional attachment to a non family member. Once puberty is reached though you are right, emotional attachment becomes more of a problem purely because as a society we engender commitment as important within our education of our children so by the time they are of breeding age they assume that sexual activities are preceded by emotional commitment (which as you must agree is not really the case, at least from the pov of a hot-blooded teenage boy!).

Remove this societal conditioning though and sex becomes purely another fun thing to do, taken to extremes you have Bonobo society where sexual activity becomes as "normal" as shaking hands is for humans.

Amen-Moses

Fr.Andrew

(ronin~): Well, then, we have reached an impasse regarding the issue of circumcision, as I find nothing at all exploitative of the medical procedure.
(Fr Andrew): I don't know about the medical procedure--this is the first time that aspect has been introduced--but circumcision is the mutilation of the genitalia of an infant to promote a religious belief.
I find that exploitative.
And it certainly violates the "personal sovereignty, integrity and consent" of the infant.
Prurient? I don't know--you'd have to ask the person wielding the knife.

Fr.Andrew

(Amen Moses): "Remove this societal conditioning though and sex becomes purely another fun thing to do..."

(Fr Andrew): Bingo! Except for disease and pregnancy, of course.

HelenM

The point you are missing is that adults do not have children circumcised for purposes of self-gratification.

And anyway, circumcision is not done to 'promote a religious belief'. It's done because the parents believe it's the best thing to do. It doesn't 'promote' a belief; it merely reveals what their belief is.

Plus, it's Jews who would have their baby boys circumcised for religious reasons, not Christians. I don't know about other religions. Most Americans have it done to their sons because they believe it's beneficial. As I recall, the evidence is inconclusive as to whether it is or not. In Europe most men are not circumcised, which is more evidence it's a cultural tradition rather than otherwise.

Any sugeon who derives a perverse pleasure in cutting people would hardly choose to specialize in such a quick, minor procedure as circumcision of newborn baby boys. As best I recall from my reading, the procedure is not done with a knife anyway.

Helen

Mad Kally

It's done with a small #15 disposable scalpel. It happens so fast if you look away for a second it's over.