Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nataraja · 11-07-2002, 04:52 PM

I doubt it. I think that, at this point, it would be a good idea to set some boundaries of your own. Your wife has not earned a monopoly on that privelige. Explain to her now that, if she tries to take away your children, it's going to be war between you.

Goliath · 11-07-2002, 05:04 PM

Helen,

Quote:

I do appreciate apologies, so thank you for caring whether I was offended or not.

You're welcome.

Quote:

Just concerned that as far as possible, the advice/suggestions/information shared here is/are as accurate as possible.

As am I. I'm also concerned that the advice be secular in nature, since this is the Secular Lifestyle & Support forum, not the Get-Down-On-Your-Knees-And-Fellate-Jesus-Now! Lifestyle & Support forum.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath · 11-07-2002, 05:07 PM

Sabine Grant,

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant:
<strong>

((((((( GOLIATH)))))))))

Just so there is no misunderstanding, that represents a hug.</strong>

Thanks.

Now, if someone asks you "Have you hugged an atheist today?", you can answer "Yes."

Sincerely,

Goliath

HelenM · 11-07-2002, 05:29 PM

x-xian, I think your wife's behavior is going to give your children plenty of reasons to reject her faith!

I would say, if she wants a divorce let her file for it - then it's clearly not you who is walking away from the marriage. Your children will see who is committed to the marriage - the atheist parent or the Christian parent. If she files for it then she's sinning according to the Bible, unless you've been unfaithful to her. But if you do, then she will appear innocent in her church's eyes, (even if she drove you to it

)

As for attending the church, there's probably more she expects than that you just showing up, right? For example, I doubt she would be happy if you came and then told some people there exactly what you think of their beliefs - or what you think of your wife's ultimatums to you...

take care
Helen

HelenM · 11-07-2002, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
I'm also concerned that the advice be secular in nature, since this is the Secular Lifestyle & Support forum, not the Get-Down-On-Your-Knees-And-Fellate-Jesus-Now! Lifestyle & Support forum.

I understand

.

Helen

NFLP · 11-07-2002, 06:26 PM

X-xian,

First, I'd recommend not having these discussions with your wife via computer. You can't reach out to soothe her when you've gone too far...you can't see one another's eyes...you can't see when you've gone too far.

My lady is a follower of Christ and I am devoutly NOT Christian. Our situations are not quite analagous but perhaps I can be helpful.

Remember that you are both going through this; it is not a matter of accuracy---you don't need to be right, you need to get along.

You are the one who changed, so you must bear the responsibility to be the mensch.

A mensch is one who displays a willingness to consider---[CONSIDER, not necessarily accede to]---the rights of others before his own feelings and the feelings of others before his own rights.

I understand the impulse to point out the psychosocial manipulations attendant to the myths of Christianity. I also know the satisfaction which comes from overriding that impulse.

Allow your wife her notion of Imaginary Friend. Attend church with her; remain silent. If you want, you can take notes at the service and respond any way you choose on paper. Don't let her see your notes.

Do let her see that you respect her need for faith. If anyone tries to bring up your deconversion, tell them "I'm not here to teach you about me."

Smile frequently.

If you are a true musician you know that music doesn't come FROM you but rather THROUGH you as you gently push aside your ego. As you face these things with your wife, gently push aside your ego and let the music play itself.

Don't whine.

Blankman · 11-07-2002, 08:23 PM

x-xian,

Divorce seems very severe to me if this is the only problem in your marriage and you both still love each other. Only you, can weigh the consequences (emotionally and financially) that divorce will cause to yourself, your wife, and especially your children. Personally, I think I would go along with my wife if it were me. Not to be a wuss and give in, but just to settle things down and keep the family together. Going to church doesn't mean you have to participate or believe in everything. And it does include some good social interaction with people. After all, christians are people too. I find going to church occasionally, only strengthens my atheism. Although sometimes I have a difficult time keeping from giggling. As far as your kids, it sounds like they have minds of their own. In some ways it may be better for them to go to church right now so they can fully understand christian teachings. Then let them decide what belief, or non-belief, to follow when they are old enough. After all, if you are going to refute something, it is best to find out as much about it as possible, right? And if you are not around they will definitely be in church EVERY sunday anyway.
What's it going to hurt if you tell your wife you will go to church with her and just listen? Look at it as entertainment. Hey, you could be like a spy for us! If she insists that you believe, explain to her that at this point in your life you cannot force yourself to believe in christianity anymore than you can force her to believe in pink unicorns. But tell her that you respect her beliefs and will keep an open mind (ha ha). Over time, maybe she will see that you really haven't changed that much and that atheism (humanism sounds better) is not as bad as her original perception of it. Above all, try to stay as calm, caring, giving, and happy as possible. Any "negative" emotions will only give her ammunition. If you appear more "positive" than before, it might make her think. And "thinking" is what brought you to be an atheist in the first place.

Just my two cents worth. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Blankman

Ted Hoffman · 11-07-2002, 10:47 PM

NFLP :"If you are a true musician you know that music doesn't come FROM you but rather THROUGH you as you gently push aside your ego. As you face these things with your wife, gently push aside your ego and let the music play itself."

Intensity :[profanity deleted] From where exactly does the music come from sir?

Xxian,
Dont go to that church unless you want to. You are an adult and she should respect your decision. Tell her its not open to debate. You dont force her to read the books you read or engage in the same activities you do and that should be enough to deter her. She is violating your human and constitutional rights (freedom of speech, beliefs etc) what she is asking is simply unfair.
If she files for divorce, it cant be granted on the grounds that you refused to go to church. Just be nice and dont do anything that she can use against you while filing for divorce. Gather strength and avoid things that will drain your energy and make you frustrated and embittered (like engaging her in a rational debate). Just do your duties as a good husband while tempers cool and things fall into place.
Her perspective might change with time. How much time we dont know, but try to hand in there as much as you can. Do everything in your power to keep your family together, but that MUST not involve selling out, succumbing to her pressure or getting controlled by her threats. You must retain your dignity. All this is a lesson for your kids. Be a father they can be proud of, not just a father their mother wants to conform to her delusions. You are not a puppet toy and she has to realize you have your thoughts, ideas and beliefs. And she has to realize that you are different people and its unrealistic for her to expect you to think and act like her.

Husbands are not up for sale: you get one, check him...if he is not a God-fearing husband, you file for divorce and get another one...

You dont go bad/rotten because you dont agree on religious matters. You are worth more than just another follower of Jesus. Your personal worth and your value as a husband and companion cannot be diminished to your stand on christianity. Tell her this. You dont threaten her faith and she can continue to be a christian if she likes. Why cant she respect your wishes?

Dont yout thoughts matter any more to her? Does she not think you too are an adult capable of making rational choices? Why does she abrogate herself the responsibility of deciding what you should believe and what church you should attend and what role you should play in marriage?

Ask her what it is she thinks about you that is of any value to her right now. Ask her if you have become totally useless because of your beliefs. You did not make a commitment to remain faithful to Jesus when you were getting married; you made a commitment to her. And you have kept it.

Tell her to think about this.

HelenM · 11-08-2002, 03:20 AM

I like that some atheists here have said it's not the end of the world to go to church for the sake of the marriage. Because if I said it I think it would be regarded as inappropriately 'theistic' advice

. And yet I do think it's a valid response, because it really isn't the end of the world.

I think the point is, why should one spouse get to push the other around? I think it's totally unreasonable of x-xians's wife to demand that he go to church - or she will divorce him! I can see why he would be very reluctant to give the impression that it's ok for his wife to make demands like that.

Plus, even though he changed, I think Intensity is right, that his commitment he made was to the marriage, not to go to church. Unless he made some specific promises to her that haven't been discussed here.

Yet - it all comes down to what matters more to him - does it matter more to take a stand, now, and risk the marriage - unless she's bluffing - or is this something where he can go along with her temporarily, until things in the relationship settle down a bit...

I think I'd be curious about the other church - I'd like to have first-hand information about where my children are going, so I'd have a better basis to discuss it.

I absolutely agree about not discussing touchy things over the computer.

x-xian, have you considered this? For all her threats and ranting and ultimatums, maybe your wife is looking for some 'stability' and despite your atheism, maybe you can show her you can provide that stability, if you can resist being wound up by her. Maybe you can connect with her on an emotional level if you can find a way to not be triggered by each of her moods...I think if you ask anyone here whose marriage has lasted a while, how they did it, they'd say there have been times when they bit their tongue, or when they laid aside their pride/ego for the sake of the relationship. I might be wrong, but I do think anyone whose marriage has gone the distance, achieved that by putting the marriage before their own desire to say something or do something, at times. And I expect it wasn't easy, at times. But to them, it was worth it.

take care
Helen

muon · 11-08-2002, 06:02 AM

I've avoided chiming in until now, but things seem to be escalating rapidly. I have three very short pieces of advice. I wouldn't delay on any of them.

1) Do *NOT* go to church. You must not allow yourself to be blackmailed. Your marriage will not be worth saving if your wife is using a divorce threat to force your behavior.
2) Insist on the two of you seeing a marriage councillor.
3) Get a lawyer. Explain what's going on, and figure out how to protect yourself if your wife files for divorce. And figure out whether you want to fight for custody if that happens.

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11-07-2002, 04:52 PM	#51
Nataraja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NC Posts: 433	I doubt it. I think that, at this point, it would be a good idea to set some boundaries of your own. Your wife has not earned a monopoly on that privelige. Explain to her now that, if she tries to take away your children, it's going to be war between you.

11-07-2002, 05:29 PM	#54
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	x-xian, I think your wife's behavior is going to give your children plenty of reasons to reject her faith! I would say, if she wants a divorce let her file for it - then it's clearly not you who is walking away from the marriage. Your children will see who is committed to the marriage - the atheist parent or the Christian parent. If she files for it then she's sinning according to the Bible, unless you've been unfaithful to her. But if you do, then she will appear innocent in her church's eyes, (even if she drove you to it ) As for attending the church, there's probably more she expects than that you just showing up, right? For example, I doubt she would be happy if you came and then told some people there exactly what you think of their beliefs - or what you think of your wife's ultimatums to you... take care Helen

11-07-2002, 06:26 PM	#56
NFLP Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Southeast Posts: 150	X-xian, First, I'd recommend not having these discussions with your wife via computer. You can't reach out to soothe her when you've gone too far...you can't see one another's eyes...you can't see when you've gone too far. My lady is a follower of Christ and I am devoutly NOT Christian. Our situations are not quite analagous but perhaps I can be helpful. Remember that you are both going through this; it is not a matter of accuracy---you don't need to be right, you need to get along. You are the one who changed, so you must bear the responsibility to be the mensch. A mensch is one who displays a willingness to consider---[CONSIDER, not necessarily accede to]---the rights of others before his own feelings and the feelings of others before his own rights. I understand the impulse to point out the psychosocial manipulations attendant to the myths of Christianity. I also know the satisfaction which comes from overriding that impulse. Allow your wife her notion of Imaginary Friend. Attend church with her; remain silent. If you want, you can take notes at the service and respond any way you choose on paper. Don't let her see your notes. Do let her see that you respect her need for faith. If anyone tries to bring up your deconversion, tell them "I'm not here to teach you about me." Smile frequently. If you are a true musician you know that music doesn't come FROM you but rather THROUGH you as you gently push aside your ego. As you face these things with your wife, gently push aside your ego and let the music play itself. Don't whine.

11-07-2002, 08:23 PM	#57
Blankman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 41	x-xian, Divorce seems very severe to me if this is the only problem in your marriage and you both still love each other. Only you, can weigh the consequences (emotionally and financially) that divorce will cause to yourself, your wife, and especially your children. Personally, I think I would go along with my wife if it were me. Not to be a wuss and give in, but just to settle things down and keep the family together. Going to church doesn't mean you have to participate or believe in everything. And it does include some good social interaction with people. After all, christians are people too. I find going to church occasionally, only strengthens my atheism. Although sometimes I have a difficult time keeping from giggling. As far as your kids, it sounds like they have minds of their own. In some ways it may be better for them to go to church right now so they can fully understand christian teachings. Then let them decide what belief, or non-belief, to follow when they are old enough. After all, if you are going to refute something, it is best to find out as much about it as possible, right? And if you are not around they will definitely be in church EVERY sunday anyway. What's it going to hurt if you tell your wife you will go to church with her and just listen? Look at it as entertainment. Hey, you could be like a spy for us! If she insists that you believe, explain to her that at this point in your life you cannot force yourself to believe in christianity anymore than you can force her to believe in pink unicorns. But tell her that you respect her beliefs and will keep an open mind (ha ha). Over time, maybe she will see that you really haven't changed that much and that atheism (humanism sounds better) is not as bad as her original perception of it. Above all, try to stay as calm, caring, giving, and happy as possible. Any "negative" emotions will only give her ammunition. If you appear more "positive" than before, it might make her think. And "thinking" is what brought you to be an atheist in the first place. Just my two cents worth. Good luck with whatever you decide. Blankman

11-07-2002, 10:47 PM	#58
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	NFLP :"If you are a true musician you know that music doesn't come FROM you but rather THROUGH you as you gently push aside your ego. As you face these things with your wife, gently push aside your ego and let the music play itself." Intensity :[profanity deleted] From where exactly does the music come from sir? Xxian, Dont go to that church unless you want to. You are an adult and she should respect your decision. Tell her its not open to debate. You dont force her to read the books you read or engage in the same activities you do and that should be enough to deter her. She is violating your human and constitutional rights (freedom of speech, beliefs etc) what she is asking is simply unfair. If she files for divorce, it cant be granted on the grounds that you refused to go to church. Just be nice and dont do anything that she can use against you while filing for divorce. Gather strength and avoid things that will drain your energy and make you frustrated and embittered (like engaging her in a rational debate). Just do your duties as a good husband while tempers cool and things fall into place. Her perspective might change with time. How much time we dont know, but try to hand in there as much as you can. Do everything in your power to keep your family together, but that MUST not involve selling out, succumbing to her pressure or getting controlled by her threats. You must retain your dignity. All this is a lesson for your kids. Be a father they can be proud of, not just a father their mother wants to conform to her delusions. You are not a puppet toy and she has to realize you have your thoughts, ideas and beliefs. And she has to realize that you are different people and its unrealistic for her to expect you to think and act like her. Husbands are not up for sale: you get one, check him...if he is not a God-fearing husband, you file for divorce and get another one... You dont go bad/rotten because you dont agree on religious matters. You are worth more than just another follower of Jesus. Your personal worth and your value as a husband and companion cannot be diminished to your stand on christianity. Tell her this. You dont threaten her faith and she can continue to be a christian if she likes. Why cant she respect your wishes? Dont yout thoughts matter any more to her? Does she not think you too are an adult capable of making rational choices? Why does she abrogate herself the responsibility of deciding what you should believe and what church you should attend and what role you should play in marriage? Ask her what it is she thinks about you that is of any value to her right now. Ask her if you have become totally useless because of your beliefs. You did not make a commitment to remain faithful to Jesus when you were getting married; you made a commitment to her. And you have kept it. Tell her to think about this.

11-08-2002, 03:20 AM	#59
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	I like that some atheists here have said it's not the end of the world to go to church for the sake of the marriage. Because if I said it I think it would be regarded as inappropriately 'theistic' advice . And yet I do think it's a valid response, because it really isn't the end of the world. I think the point is, why should one spouse get to push the other around? I think it's totally unreasonable of x-xians's wife to demand that he go to church - or she will divorce him! I can see why he would be very reluctant to give the impression that it's ok for his wife to make demands like that. Plus, even though he changed, I think Intensity is right, that his commitment he made was to the marriage, not to go to church. Unless he made some specific promises to her that haven't been discussed here. Yet - it all comes down to what matters more to him - does it matter more to take a stand, now, and risk the marriage - unless she's bluffing - or is this something where he can go along with her temporarily, until things in the relationship settle down a bit... I think I'd be curious about the other church - I'd like to have first-hand information about where my children are going, so I'd have a better basis to discuss it. I absolutely agree about not discussing touchy things over the computer. x-xian, have you considered this? For all her threats and ranting and ultimatums, maybe your wife is looking for some 'stability' and despite your atheism, maybe you can show her you can provide that stability, if you can resist being wound up by her. Maybe you can connect with her on an emotional level if you can find a way to not be triggered by each of her moods...I think if you ask anyone here whose marriage has lasted a while, how they did it, they'd say there have been times when they bit their tongue, or when they laid aside their pride/ego for the sake of the relationship. I might be wrong, but I do think anyone whose marriage has gone the distance, achieved that by putting the marriage before their own desire to say something or do something, at times. And I expect it wasn't easy, at times. But to them, it was worth it. take care Helen

11-08-2002, 06:02 AM	#60
muon Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,767	I've avoided chiming in until now, but things seem to be escalating rapidly. I have three very short pieces of advice. I wouldn't delay on any of them. 1) Do NOT go to church. You must not allow yourself to be blackmailed. Your marriage will not be worth saving if your wife is using a divorce threat to force your behavior. 2) Insist on the two of you seeing a marriage councillor. 3) Get a lawyer. Explain what's going on, and figure out how to protect yourself if your wife files for divorce. And figure out whether you want to fight for custody if that happens.

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