Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jewel · 08-08-2003, 04:06 AM

Year-round students first to observe new rule on loyalty oath

Quote:

Most of the state's 750,000 pupils have yet to return to classes. But for those in year-round schools scattered throughout the metro area - including 19 in Denver Public Schools and 10 in Cherry Creek School District - Wednesday was the day the pledge law and nearly 100 other new state requirements went into effect.

Not that many students at Maxwell understood precisely what they were being required to say.

Ask Damika Finley-Ponds, 5, what the pledge means and she fixates on just one of its 31 words.

"God," Finley-Ponds said solemnly. "God helps us. Because he loves and he wants us to be helped and he doesn't want us to get hurt."

Krishelle Todd, 10, a fifth-grader at Maxwell, said she thinks the pledge is "like remembering the Fourth of July and all those people who have died for our freedom."

GaryP · 08-08-2003, 04:43 AM

I had a little boy in class several years ago who ended each recitation of the POA with "Amen!".

Stephen Maturin · 08-08-2003, 04:48 AM

Looks like the same sort of law that Texas and Pennsylvania passed. From the Colorado General Assembly's website:

Quote:

SECTION 1. 22-1-106, Colorado Revised Statutes, is amended to read:

22-1-106. Information as to honor and use of flag. (1) The commissioner of education shall provide the necessary instruction and information so that all teachers in the grade and high schools in the state of Colorado may teach the pupils therein the proper respect of the flag of the United States, to honor and properly salute the flag when passing in parade, and to properly use the flag in decorating and displaying.

(2) (a) The teacher and students in each classroom in each public elementary, middle, and junior high school in the state of Colorado shall begin each school day by reciting aloud the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. The teacher and students in each classroom in each public high school in the state of Colorado shall recite aloud the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America when the school conducts its daily announcements. If a public high school does not conduct daily announcements, then the teacher and students in each classroom in the public high school shall, on a daily basis, recite aloud the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.

(b) Nothing in this subsection (2) shall be construed to require a teacher or a student to recite the pledge of allegiance described in paragraph (a) of this subsection (2) if the teacher or student objects to the recitation of the pledge on religious grounds. A student shall be exempt from reciting the pledge of allegiance if a parent or guardian of the student objects in writing to the recitation of the pledge on any grounds and files the objection with the principal of the school.

(c) Nothing in this subsection (2) shall be construed to require students and teachers who are not United States citizens and are attending or teaching school in the state of Colorado to recite the pledge of allegiance described in paragraph (a) of this subsection (2).

Subsection (1) was there before. Subsection (2) is all new.

The Jefferson County school district spokesman quoted in the article Jewel linked says the district won't discipline anyone for noncompliance. We'll see about that, I suppose. He also says:

Quote:

"This is a 30-second process at the start of every school day. It is truly our hope that this does not become a huge issue."

We'll see about that, too.

nogods4me · 08-08-2003, 05:19 AM

This is insane. Once the PA law was struck down you would think this fundibots would have gotten the message.
Man these people really piss me off. How can they not see that requiring anyone to pledge allegiance to anything is fundamentally opposed to everything the founders wanted this nation to be. There should not even be a POA period .(IMNSHO)

What a friggin' joke, I have not recited the POA since like 1st or 2nd grade, I would stand for the National Anthem and then sit back down when the rest of the kids did the pledge and the Lord's Prayer crapola.(the praying didn't last long, I was in the Baltimore school system in the early 1960's when Madelyn filed her lawsuit Heck, the Cub Scouts informed me I wasn't "Scouting material" because I refused to pledge at the beginning of den meetings. I used to get a little grief for it, but not much. There was a little girl in my elementary school who never said the pledge either and whenever a teacher said something to her she would hand them a little card. She was a Jehovah's Witness and on the card was info concerning the Supreme Court decision that said that the pledge could not be made cumpulsory. I guess they handed them out to all the school age JW's. Well after I saw that and knew I couldn't get into to trouble for refusing to pledge, that was it, no looking back for me.

Shadowy Man · 08-08-2003, 05:20 AM

Quote:

A student shall be exempt from reciting the pledge of allegiance if a parent or guardian of the student objects in writing to the recitation of the pledge on any grounds and files the objection with the principal of the school.

So you need an official note from your parent if you don't want to say the pledge?!?

NYCparalegal · 08-08-2003, 07:27 AM

When I was 15 and my father's company relocated us to the then-new American subsidiary in rural NC, I had very little knowledge of English. So when I started high school 15 days after I set foot on US land, I just followed the herd since I didn't understand a word anyway.

But when I began understanding, I refused to partake in the pledge, on the grounds that I did not (and do not) feel compelled to pledge allegiance to a flag of a country of which I am not a citizen.

On one particular morning in my U.S. history class, at 2nd period, the time when the pledge came on at our high school, I just stood up for respect but did not put my hand on the heart or recited the pledge. My U.S. history teacher came to me and took my arm, placing it on my heart, in pledge pose. In my halting English, I said "No, I am not reciting the pledge" and went on explaining the reasons why. Since that time, I became this teacher's least favorite student, to the excess of criticizing a paper I wrote on U.S. independence because I included a paragraph describing French and British interests at the time, with the teacher warning me that the class was U.S. history and not world history (note: I was schooled in northern Italy, where the education system, particularly at the elementary/high school level, is actually quite good, with a classical emphasis, and a strong interdisciplinary approach. Therefore, it came quite natural to me to write an essay that approached a historical issue from many points of view. However, during my school years in the U.S., in both high school and college, some teachers are only interested in talking about a specific subject as if it were isolated from outside influences)

nogods4me · 08-08-2003, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
So you need an official note from your parent if you don't want to say the pledge?!?

Right. And this was what doomed the PA law. It smacks of coercion by, esentially threatening to report the kids to their parents.

Shadowy Man · 08-08-2003, 11:14 AM

I guess free speech doesn't apply to minors.

Rhaedas · 08-08-2003, 11:25 AM

I know it's a visual, symbolic thing, but...

Why do we pledge to the flag, a mere symbol, when we could pledge allegience, or at least admiration/appreciation, of the Constitution, which really is the backbone of the country? Seems to me that would have been both more effective against communism (the original purpose of the PoA, right?) and more secular, having nothing religious about it.

Shadowy Man · 08-08-2003, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhaedas

Why do we pledge to the flag, a mere symbol, when we could pledge allegience, or at least admiration/appreciation, of the Constitution, which really is the backbone of the country?

Because our current administration doesn't want you looking at the Constitution too closely.

08-08-2003, 07:27 AM	#6
NYCparalegal Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Manhattan, NYC Posts: 183	A non-US citizen's view... When I was 15 and my father's company relocated us to the then-new American subsidiary in rural NC, I had very little knowledge of English. So when I started high school 15 days after I set foot on US land, I just followed the herd since I didn't understand a word anyway. But when I began understanding, I refused to partake in the pledge, on the grounds that I did not (and do not) feel compelled to pledge allegiance to a flag of a country of which I am not a citizen. On one particular morning in my U.S. history class, at 2nd period, the time when the pledge came on at our high school, I just stood up for respect but did not put my hand on the heart or recited the pledge. My U.S. history teacher came to me and took my arm, placing it on my heart, in pledge pose. In my halting English, I said "No, I am not reciting the pledge" and went on explaining the reasons why. Since that time, I became this teacher's least favorite student, to the excess of criticizing a paper I wrote on U.S. independence because I included a paragraph describing French and British interests at the time, with the teacher warning me that the class was U.S. history and not world history (note: I was schooled in northern Italy, where the education system, particularly at the elementary/high school level, is actually quite good, with a classical emphasis, and a strong interdisciplinary approach. Therefore, it came quite natural to me to write an essay that approached a historical issue from many points of view. However, during my school years in the U.S., in both high school and college, some teachers are only interested in talking about a specific subject as if it were isolated from outside influences)

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08-08-2003, 04:43 AM	#2
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	I had a little boy in class several years ago who ended each recitation of the POA with "Amen!".

08-08-2003, 05:19 AM	#4
nogods4me Contributor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 17,432	This is insane. Once the PA law was struck down you would think this fundibots would have gotten the message. Man these people really piss me off. How can they not see that requiring anyone to pledge allegiance to anything is fundamentally opposed to everything the founders wanted this nation to be. There should not even be a POA period .(IMNSHO) What a friggin' joke, I have not recited the POA since like 1st or 2nd grade, I would stand for the National Anthem and then sit back down when the rest of the kids did the pledge and the Lord's Prayer crapola.(the praying didn't last long, I was in the Baltimore school system in the early 1960's when Madelyn filed her lawsuit Heck, the Cub Scouts informed me I wasn't "Scouting material" because I refused to pledge at the beginning of den meetings. I used to get a little grief for it, but not much. There was a little girl in my elementary school who never said the pledge either and whenever a teacher said something to her she would hand them a little card. She was a Jehovah's Witness and on the card was info concerning the Supreme Court decision that said that the pledge could not be made cumpulsory. I guess they handed them out to all the school age JW's. Well after I saw that and knew I couldn't get into to trouble for refusing to pledge, that was it, no looking back for me.

08-08-2003, 11:14 AM	#8
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	I guess free speech doesn't apply to minors.

08-08-2003, 11:25 AM	#9
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	I know it's a visual, symbolic thing, but... Why do we pledge to the flag, a mere symbol, when we could pledge allegience, or at least admiration/appreciation, of the Constitution, which really is the backbone of the country? Seems to me that would have been both more effective against communism (the original purpose of the PoA, right?) and more secular, having nothing religious about it.

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