galiel

You are a moderator? The mind boggles at the thought of a moderator making the kind of ad hom insults and mockery you have inflicted on me in the Complaint forums and elsewhere. Is it any wonder I question your credibility? You can't be part of the problem in one thread and then try to be part of the solution in another. My primary interaction with you has been your derailing my final attempt to try to deal with Don before I left, and your actively interfering with my attempts to participate constructively when I returned. You are a poster child for the problem with letting moderators post at will.

The mind simply boggles. And CSS&SA is my favorite forum, too

Celsus

Hi galiel, devnet,

Just to butt in on the population issue. I think devnet has a point, and it's not a Malthusian one. The Middle East as a whole is the region of the world with the fastest population growth rates and urbanisation rates. It is a real and significant problem that they are already facing water shortages as a result. I posted a thread on this idea <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=46&t=001546" target="_blank">here</a> but it didn't get much response. Perhaps you'd like to comment? It attempts to separate religion from the whole issue, which you may or may not accept, but it's a neutral attempt at analysis (which I don't necessarily buy, but which I thought might be good since everyone here likes to blame religion for just about every problem in the world).

Joel

emotional

Huh? Did I not mention the local Ultra-Orthodox Ayatollahs and Talebans? Did I not say I do not trust theists (in general) an inch? My emphasis on the Islamic theists is only because they are the most prominent and hold the most real-world (ie political) power. But I don't exempt the Jewish or Christian at all.

There is a good chance of peace between Jewish and Muslim secularists. It's the religionists of the two sides that make matters insoluble. That's why I advocate secularism as the one and only solution. Unfortunately, the majority of Muslims do not think secularly. They still cling to the disproved belief of a sovereign-God answering prayers and providing for all. I've met so many Muslims, and one thing that characterises them is that the idea of the non-existence of God doesn't even cross their minds - they think like in the Middle Ages.

galiel

No, I except it as a legitimate argument (but probably worhty of a separate thread). I would just observe that, IMO, you are looking at a symptom and identifying it as a cause. In otherwords, high birth rates and urbanization are not the problem, they are indications of the underlying problem, which is neglect and abandonment which creates a vacuum into which the zealots readily jump, as readily as Hitler did. The Muslim fundies promise solutions to problems that the West could, if the political will existed, solve in secular fashion. Similarly, urbanization is not really the cause of water shortages. Water shortages exist because the political will to implement available solutions is lacking. in the absence of rational solutions, people turn to simplistic autocrats in desperation. Most often, these days, they are Muslim extremists, but that is just at this moment in time, it is not inevitable or eternal.

Education, particularly of women, empowerment, particularly of women, access to the global network of information and technological and scientific knowledge, these are the "weapons" that can defeat religious fundamentalism--and all other forms of authoritarianism (Saddam Hussein's regime is certainly not based on religious dogma, nor is China's or North Korea's).

All the smart bombs in the world are not smart enough to defeat the stupidest religious dogma.

Pseudonymph

Basically, that's what this all comes down to. If nothing else, religious persecution gives fundamentalists more fight and strength. They love to feel as though they are being martyred.

The road to change is through CHANGE people! Make a difference wherever you go...don't settle on the easy way out. "take by force"...give me a break.

Celsus

Galiel,

I'm not sure how much we actually disagree, but when you talk of "political will" that is as much a problem as democracy issues, and this is a much more complicated scenario than either of us are equipped to tackle. I will say, however, that when the groundwater tables start to become salinised (as in Mexico City), then we are talking real trouble. Industrialised agriculture as is frequently used in Central Asia (see shrinkage of Black and Caspian Seas) is spreading rapidly through the Middle East, hence Turkey, Syria and Iraq squabbling over water rights to the Tigris and Euphrates etc. This is an enormous issue in the Middle East for planners and governments, but not one that regularly makes the news. Did you read the link? I can elaborate if you like.

Joel

emotional

Sorry, but I must leave this thread before I get another burn-out. I already feel the depression building inside my head.

I don't like debating, I only like winning debates.

G'bye...

Celsus

Hi Sirenspeak,

Do you have any suggestions about how to change people?

Devnet,

A pity, I was looking forward to talking to someone from the Middle East.

Joel

galiel

Then I suggest you do as we are doing here: take care of your own house first, before you presume to take over everyone else's by eminent domain. It is not just, nor even primarily, the ultra-orthodox who are the problem in Israel. It is the mainstream acceptance of religion immensely intertwined with government, education, culture, socal norms, political attitudes and military and police policy. It is a clear majority of voters supporting politicians whose ideological beliefs, however disguised, are ultimately theological.

It is even people like you, Devnet who think you are above and outside it all, yet sloppily refer to "Muslims" as though Persians and Palestinians, Egyptians and Sudanese, Pakistani and Syrian, Ayatollah and Arafat, Abdullah and Rushdie, are all some nebulous "nigger" race, with some politically acceptable "Uncle Toms" who wear western attire and attend Parisian soirees for the amusement of the bourgoisie.

Sorry, but we are in utter opposition. I want an "army" of peace, an "army" of teachers and technicians, engineers and architects, poets and policy wonks, musicians and mothers to march on all the benighted areas of conflict and drown your noble crusaders and their "childlike" opponents in an irresistable uprising for peace.

And I would sacrifice many thousands to your bombs in the cause of peace, if necessary, as readily as you would sacrifice millions in your crusade. The difference is that, when all the smoke clears, you would leave rubble and disease and pain and a power vacuum into which the next extremist will flow, promising easy solutions, while I would leave the virus of knowledge, the apple of access, the seed of science and the crucible of critical thinking. (hey, what can I say, some days you eat the alliteration and some days the alliteration eats you!)

dangin

You said in your OP "Secularise even by force if need be." I guess it is more mild than I thought, carry on then.