emotional

Secular law, based on humanistic, naturalistic, materialistic reasoning, is the best there is for mankind. It holds at bay those gods and would-be gods who would enslave mankind and abolish freedom. It applies real, material treatment to problems, to which religious law would apply magic, witchcraft "solutions" such as prayer and more obedience to God.

Religion-ruled states are a danger to mankind. Internally, they are a menace because they cut down the freedoms of their citizens. Externally, they are dangerous to the secular world because spawn religious terrorists (think Saudi Arabia here) and population explosion which is harmful to the environment of the world as a whole. In our day and age, where the ecological balance is at stake, we cannot afford religious rule. Family planning and rational stewardship of the planet is necessary if we are to survive. Population explosion breeds mass starvation, even if the people are pious (the reason: there is no God! But some people don't get it...), and mass starvation breeds hatred towards the well-fed secular states, which acts out as terrorism.

There must commence a secular struggle (struggle in Arabic: jihaad) to secularise the world before it's too late. Secularise even by force if need be. Install secular, materialistic, humanist rule over religious states, as Ataturk did in Turkey. Institute secular schools to teach the new generations the truths of atheism, evolution, materialism, naturalism and humanism.

The war of the 21st century is the war between secularism (humanist law) and theonomy (religious law). Either secularism or theonomy shall prevail. Secularism is at enmity with theonomy, and theonomy is dangerous to secularism. The good side - secularism, because it has all the truth and the only prospect for ecological stewardship - must win, otherwise the bad side - theonomy, whose religious fantasies could only create a hell on earth - will wipe out prosperity and freedom and all that is good.

This is a plea for secularism. The world needs secular rule. Religion is semi-alright when it is a private, personal affair, but not when it intrudes into the real world of actions. The real world is materialistic, anti-supernatural to the core, and religious actions could only mishandle it. The Religious Right in the USA and the Islamic shari'a-ruled states are a menace to mankind and must kept away from taking action. Just as a company would not keep a manager who insisted on improving its fiscal state by casting magic spells, so too a state must not accept any sort of religious action for dealing with its real-world, material problems.

For more about the groundwork for this post, see in my article <a href="http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/necessec.htm" target="_blank">Necessity and Primacy of Secularism</a>.

NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM - A NEW ORDER OF THE AGES

galiel

Wow. I was convinced this was a spoof, and then I read your page.

You are driven by hate, not by humanistic values. Your version of secularism sounds more fascistic than enlightened or compassionate.

Given where you live, your deep hatred might be understandable, but it is never excusable. Please do not presume to represent secular thought. "Impose by force" indeed. Who appointed you the secular god?

emotional

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Partly by hate of religion, and partly by recognition of humanism, naturalism and materialism as the only correct way of viewing the universe. It's all about worldviews.

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We're dealing with a real, merciless, ruthless world here, galiel. Population explosion simply means starvation, which is spelt D-E-A-T-H. This is a deadly serious matter, with no room for enlightened or compassionate games. The religious states, with their populace bringing forth multitudes of offspring not caring for the morrow, saying "God will provide", are a menace to the whole of mankind.

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My own country is under onslaught of Ayatollahs and Talebans who would bring it under religious rule. I see all those things up close. And the Ultra-Orthodox Jews breed like rabbits, bringing down the economy of the state, because there are not enough resources to feed all those children.

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The article and this posting are personal opinions. I do not purport to represent anyone.

Because the theonomic states will not accept secular law willingly. It's for their own good. The children must be taught and encouraged and perhaps even forced (if all else fails) to grow up and give up their dangerous belief that there is actually a god <a href="http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/nonsystematic.htm" target="_blank">having real-world consequences</a>.

When the populous Islamic states undergo inevitable mass starvation, it is YOU, the well-fed secular American, whom they will be blaming. So secularise before the next 9/11 attack comes!

galiel

You remind me of my mother, who insists that my children MUST have a Jewish identity, because, if there is ever another Hitler, they should know why they are being gassed.



What you are suggesting is that we let the terrorists win. Turn every democracy into an armed camp, live in constant 'preemptive fear', sacrifice the very principles that make free society supposedly better than repressive societies, and engage in immoral acts of murder and forceful imperialism, while justifying all these abhorrent means with the fata morgana of "defeating religion".

I grew up in Jerusalem, my friend. My mother lives directly at the line of skirmish, on the Green Line facing the Jaffa Gate. I spent four years in a yechidah matcalit. And, oddly enough, I have come to the precise opposite conclusion that you do. Pursue understanding, provide education, bind with commerce, win hearts with generosity, and take risks for peace. Brute force has never defeated strong beliefs. Reason and education, however, have defeated many a superstition.

Hate comes from fear, fear comes from ignorance, and ignorance is the tool of religious zealotry.

You can't murder hate.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will only leave everybody blindly sucking yogurt through a straw.

emotional

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YOUR interpretation!

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WHAT?! Have you at all read what I suggested? SECULARISE. Install a free society instead of those repressive societies that exist. Install secular schools, secular ecudation in countries that lack it. Abolish religious law and religious teaching. Use force only as a last resort, when the opposition to secularism is too strenuous. Do what Ataturk did for ex-Ottoman Turkey. He had to resort to undemocratic means, yes, but only because the Turkish people wouldn't secularise of their own free will. You sometimes have to beat a child so he won't poke his fingers in the power outlet, you know. It's for their own good. They - the theists - don't know what's for their own good. They're trapped in the opiate myth of the sovereign-God who provides for all.

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I'm all FOR that. But while these things are happening and having a small positive effect, millions of children are growing on the lie that "God provides", and they will be the bearers of too many offspring and consequently the spawners of terrorists in the future. Secularism isn't for acquiring at leisure, it's a burning need. Kind, unpushy methods are good, but they're too slow.

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Ataturk. How many times do I have to say that: Ataturk. He secularised Turkey and made a great number of Turks atheistic thinkers instead of theistic Islamic thinkers. By brute force sometimes, because the Turks didn't know what was good for them and often resisted secularism.

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I repeat:

1. They believe God provides.
2. They bear lots of offspring.
3. They have too many people as against too few resources.
4. They will inevitably starve en masse.
5. They will not blame themselves, or Allah - they will blame the well-fed. Which means YOU.
6. They will launch terrorist attacks against... (you know the rest).

How to prevent this? Secularise FAST! Secularise NOW! Secularism is the only solution, the only antidote to the likes of Jerry Falwell and Osamah bin Laden.

galiel

Just to debunk the population explosion myth, which is so 70's I'm amazed you bring it up here at all:

1) Historically, every nation on earth has undergone a population growth curve that ultimately leads to zero pop or negative growth. The key variable in birth rate: education, in particular education of women.
2) Revised estimates of long-term population numbers using today's high growth ratesshow the Earth reaching equilibrium far below the seemingly scary levels that were predicted even as recently as 20 years ago.
3) The Malthusian nonsense of insufficency that is most infuriatingly pernicious and hard to root out ignores great strides in food production, water utilization, and conversion of non-arable to arable land, and, most of all, the ephemeralization (doing more and more with less and less) that Buckminster Fuller predicted more than 60 years ago and which far outpaces the linear growth rates that Malthus predicted (which weren't even accurate in his time).

In short: the Earth faces grave dangers as a result of human thoughtlessness, but great progress has been made, and great progress will be made. The signal contribution of rational thought and the scientific sensibility to humanity has been a gradual but nontheless significant reduction in the percentage of national conflicts that erupt in violence between free, modern, secular nations. To embark on an imperialistic, bigoted, patronizing crusade to impose your values on the world by force is to fly in the face of everything that secular reason stands for.

Rationality is not an end. It is a process. It is a way. It is the means. And, frankly, I don't find your superiority complex and casual dismissal of the rest of humanity as "children" who need to be saved to be particularly rational nor enlightened.

I find it hard to believe that you are the same Devnet who posts such thoughtful analyses and carefully constructed refutations of theistic nonsense on other threads.

Living, as you do, in an extremely militaristic society, perhaps you don't hear the near-fascistic violence in your call for a bloody secular crusade. I find it rather horrifying and I suspect I would very much object to living in the kind of society you envision.

No personal offense intended, and I am glad to be debating someone who doesn't take strong critique of ideas as a personal attack when none is intended. I respect your right to express yourself and to think as you wish, and I greatly respect your posts on other topics, but I find this thread rather frightening.

emotional

I don't believe there is any other solution than secularism. I can't see what's faulty about my analysis of the situtation. I've lived long enough in Israel to despair from solving the political problems (I mean the Israeli-Arab conflict specifically) by means of dialogue. I believe what is needed is not dialogue, but full conversion - not a change of some application software, as it were, but of a whole underlying operating system. I believe the Muslims are programmed to kill Jews, and nothing will solve the problem but total reprogramming.

I believe in the ability of humans to commit atrocity by virtue of mind-programming. Holocaust: the Nazis did not behave like beasts (beasts don't do such things), they behaved like machines - rather like the example of the Terminators in the two Schwarzenegger films. I believe the Muslims don't want peace with the Jews, I believe they want genocide of the Jews. I believe the Muslims want total conversion of the whole world to Islam. I don't believe any compromise is possible. Call me paranoid, but that's the analysis stemming from my experience. I don't trust theists an inch.

dangin

Hi devnet, how are you doing?

Galiel, I don't know if you will trust this coming from me, but devnet has lots of strong opinions on ending religion by force, and the problems of modern dating. Take a deep breath, calm your indignation and let this slide.

devnet, no threats please, we don't need anyone calling for violence in anyway. Think if someone actually listened to you. You're welcome here, just no violence, OK?

emotional

I called for violence? I can't recall that. I called for secularism, not for violence.

Funny that the same people who would forcefully get creationism out of schools - and rightly so - would not think of doing the same for theism at large. The threat of theism deserves to be taken just as seriously as creationism, if not more so.

galiel

Who advocates "forcefully" getting creationism out of schools? That is a new one for me. People advocate using the protections granted by the Constitution and the democratic electoral process to get creationism, not out of schools, but out of Science class (it is more than welcome in a Comparative Religion class).

The fact that your clarion call is not really a call for secularism over religion but a call for West vs. Arab is revealed by the fact that you don't mention Jewish irrational zealotry in your description of the Middle East conflict. Until you acknowledge the madness, hatred, irrationality and atrocity on both sides of the conflict, you will not convince me that your intentions are anything but violence masquerading as enlightenment.