Freethought & Rationalism Archive

notMichaelJackson · 02-11-2003, 12:56 PM

What political objectives by theists do you disagree with the most?

notMichaelJackson · 02-11-2003, 12:59 PM

How silly of me. I couldn't think of any other specific political objectives that atheists might disagree with, but I know there are some.

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 02-11-2003, 01:07 PM

I disagree with the teaching of creationism in public schools the most. Students will leave high school with a perverted understanding of science if creationism is allowed to be taught. Science in public schools is poor enough without dragging it down further. I'm still recovering from high school science and I have always been fairly fluent in science, so I can imagine it's so much worse for poor high school kids.

-Nick

christ-on-a-stick · 02-11-2003, 01:14 PM

If I absolutely HAD to pick one.. and I reserve the right to change my mind (woman's perogative dontcha know

) - it would be #2, the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control.

My reasoning:

Although I find the "Faith-Based Initiative" repugnant and blatantly unconstitutional, I harbor hope that either A) it will be found to be so or B) it will be done away with my a future (hopfully SOON!) administration.

Similarly, while the fact that even the *idea*of creationism being taught in schools in this day and age absolutely boggles my mind, I think that it will eventually go the way of the dinosaur. (HA!) I think the cretinists are fighting a losing battle against science.

HOWEVER.... the deeply corrupt and ethically indefensible institution that some people like to call The Roman Catholic Church still, in the year 2003, has a virtual stranglehold on millions the world over, many of whom are living in poverty, ignorance and with no access to information that might free them from their current position of being intimidated and cowed into unfettered reproduction by a "moral authority" that threatens them with hellfire and damnation.

As a direct result of this, hundreds of thousands of children are born into abject poverty and (often brief) lives of unbelievable suffering.

A Benevolent God's "Master Plan"? I think not.

Psycho Economist · 02-11-2003, 01:22 PM

Federal support of religious charity work dances with the lemon-test. "Faith-based initiatives" stretch too far, and will likely fall short of judicial standards if challenged.

Catholic opposition to birth control is beyond my reach to influence, and effects me, however seriously, only indirectly.

Creationism in the public schools is by turns open and insidious defiance of church & state seperation. It is the most threatening to my most immediate communities (city, state and country but not certainly not the world), and it something I can oppose, at least at the margin.

Ab_Normal · 02-11-2003, 01:48 PM

This is another one where I can rant on any of the choices, but I had to go with creationism, because I have a kid in the public school system.

Gooch's dad · 02-11-2003, 02:21 PM

I picked 'Other', because the creationism battle seems to be easy compared to the ID battle.

The Supreme Court was quite clear on the issue of biblical creationism in public schools in the 1997 "Edwards v Aguillar" decision. Yes, many local districts keep trying to pull this BS, but they are wasting their time.

On the other hand, efforts by the Discovery Institute to encourage schools to "teach the controversy" will be much more difficult to fight. ID is creationism dressed up in a bow tie, but it is still creationism. And there IS no controversy in evolutionary biology.

The wedge strategy will be much more difficult to fight than YEC, mainly because the general public doesn't understand that ID really is a form of creationism.

-Kelly

spurly · 02-11-2003, 04:09 PM

As a Christian the one that irks me the most is the "Theology of the Santa Claus God". Many people have tried to advance this theology in the past, the latest being Bruce Wilkinson in The Prayer of Jabez.

God is not a cosmic Santa Claus just waiting to hand us gifts and blessings. God is a God who wants what is best for us, and sometimes that is not what we want for ourselves.

Kevin

notMichaelJackson · 02-11-2003, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
As a Christian the one that irks me the most is the "Theology of the Santa Claus God". Many people have tried to advance this theology in the past, the latest being Bruce Wilkinson in The Prayer of Jabez.

God is not a cosmic Santa Claus just waiting to hand us gifts and blessings. God is a God who wants what is best for us, and sometimes that is not what we want for ourselves.

Kevin

Thanks, Kevin, but I asked for theistic political objectives. Any that you don't like?

GunnerJ · 02-11-2003, 04:16 PM

Faith based initiatives sound sinister, but I really think that if guidelines can be made to seperate the valid charitable work from the religious nuttery, it could work. Creationism in school is pretty bad, but it only does intellectual harm which can be undone or negated by forward-thinking parents. In terms of sheer capicity to cause societal and personal harm, however, nothing tops the Catholic stance on birth control for sheer odiousness. Just as stupid as creationism, and many times more dangerous.

View Poll Results: What theistic political objectives do you disagree with the most?
"Faith-Based Initative"	6	6.06%
Catholic Church's opposition to birth control	17	17.17%
Creationism in public school	68	68.69%
Other (please explain)	8	8.08%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

02-11-2003, 12:56 PM	#1
notMichaelJackson Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: IL Posts: 552	Theistic position you disagree with the most? What political objectives by theists do you disagree with the most?

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02-11-2003, 12:59 PM	#2
notMichaelJackson Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: IL Posts: 552	How silly of me. I couldn't think of any other specific political objectives that atheists might disagree with, but I know there are some.

02-11-2003, 01:07 PM	#3
I ate Pascal's Wafer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,460	I disagree with the teaching of creationism in public schools the most. Students will leave high school with a perverted understanding of science if creationism is allowed to be taught. Science in public schools is poor enough without dragging it down further. I'm still recovering from high school science and I have always been fairly fluent in science, so I can imagine it's so much worse for poor high school kids. -Nick

02-11-2003, 01:14 PM	#4
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	If I absolutely HAD to pick one.. and I reserve the right to change my mind (woman's perogative dontcha know ) - it would be #2, the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control. My reasoning: Although I find the "Faith-Based Initiative" repugnant and blatantly unconstitutional, I harbor hope that either A) it will be found to be so or B) it will be done away with my a future (hopfully SOON!) administration. Similarly, while the fact that even the ideaof creationism being taught in schools in this day and age absolutely boggles my mind, I think that it will eventually go the way of the dinosaur. (HA!) I think the cretinists are fighting a losing battle against science. HOWEVER.... the deeply corrupt and ethically indefensible institution that some people like to call The Roman Catholic Church still, in the year 2003, has a virtual stranglehold on millions the world over, many of whom are living in poverty, ignorance and with no access to information that might free them from their current position of being intimidated and cowed into unfettered reproduction by a "moral authority" that threatens them with hellfire and damnation. As a direct result of this, hundreds of thousands of children are born into abject poverty and (often brief) lives of unbelievable suffering. A Benevolent God's "Master Plan"? I think not.

02-11-2003, 01:22 PM	#5
Psycho Economist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 854	Federal support of religious charity work dances with the lemon-test. "Faith-based initiatives" stretch too far, and will likely fall short of judicial standards if challenged. Catholic opposition to birth control is beyond my reach to influence, and effects me, however seriously, only indirectly. Creationism in the public schools is by turns open and insidious defiance of church & state seperation. It is the most threatening to my most immediate communities (city, state and country but not certainly not the world), and it something I can oppose, at least at the margin.

02-11-2003, 01:48 PM	#6
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	This is another one where I can rant on any of the choices, but I had to go with creationism, because I have a kid in the public school system.

02-11-2003, 02:21 PM	#7
Gooch's dad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Madison WI USA Posts: 3,508	I picked 'Other', because the creationism battle seems to be easy compared to the ID battle. The Supreme Court was quite clear on the issue of biblical creationism in public schools in the 1997 "Edwards v Aguillar" decision. Yes, many local districts keep trying to pull this BS, but they are wasting their time. On the other hand, efforts by the Discovery Institute to encourage schools to "teach the controversy" will be much more difficult to fight. ID is creationism dressed up in a bow tie, but it is still creationism. And there IS no controversy in evolutionary biology. The wedge strategy will be much more difficult to fight than YEC, mainly because the general public doesn't understand that ID really is a form of creationism. -Kelly

02-11-2003, 04:09 PM	#8
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	As a Christian the one that irks me the most is the "Theology of the Santa Claus God". Many people have tried to advance this theology in the past, the latest being Bruce Wilkinson in The Prayer of Jabez. God is not a cosmic Santa Claus just waiting to hand us gifts and blessings. God is a God who wants what is best for us, and sometimes that is not what we want for ourselves. Kevin

02-11-2003, 04:16 PM	#10
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	Faith based initiatives sound sinister, but I really think that if guidelines can be made to seperate the valid charitable work from the religious nuttery, it could work. Creationism in school is pretty bad, but it only does intellectual harm which can be undone or negated by forward-thinking parents. In terms of sheer capicity to cause societal and personal harm, however, nothing tops the Catholic stance on birth control for sheer odiousness. Just as stupid as creationism, and many times more dangerous.

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