Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 05-03-2002, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain:
I suppose I could rephrase the initial question:

Am I immoral for being sexually stimulated by thoughts of rape and torture, despite considering such acts reprehensible in practice?

I don't see how an involuntary physical reaction can be classified as moral or not.

How can you rightly apply the term 'moral' or 'immoral' except in matters in which we have a choice over our own thoughts/behavior/responses?

You have a choice in whether you fantasize or not so I think one could appropriately consider whether that is moral or not. But your reaction when you do - that's not voluntary so I'd say you can't categorize it that way.

However, some people might decide what is moral and what is not, by the results.

Therefore some people could argue that something which causes you to be stimulated in certain ways is proved immoral because you should not be doing what stimulates you...if you see what I mean.

I think that's probably one reason why Christians would argue that the use of pornography is immoral. I'd say another one is that it treats women (or men) as merely visual aids to stimulation for other people, which I would say is demeaning. I suppose you could argue it's consentual though - setting aside that which isn't produced with permission or which involves minors.

Whatever

Helen

Bree · 05-03-2002, 06:30 PM

Ditto - QoS

.

Cutter · 05-03-2002, 10:20 PM

BTW, women's rape fantasies are more often than not actually referred to as 'ravishing' fantasies. They are also quite different to male rape fantasies. So your lady friends probably weren't lying to you AntiChris but their fantasies were probably quite different to what you were perhaps thinking they were.

Coincidentally, seeing's how some people seem to have misunderstood me, I find rape as reprehensible as anyone else, I'd never do it. But I have had fantasies about it. Mind you, they mostly seem to have been in high school, can't recall having any recently. I suspect that they are probably mainly a puberty thing, when you think about nothing but sex, sex, sex - any where, any way, any how.

Zack · 05-04-2002, 11:02 AM

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A THOUGHT CRIME! If I as a gay male choose to have a sexual fantasy about, well any man I choose to, there is no crime or question of morality involved. If I went around telling people it would be annoying but would not be a crime unless it led to some kind of stocking situaton. We are fortunate that we cannot read each others thoughts. We are all free to think anything we want at any time and to never have to answer to anybody about what we think.

GPLindsey · 05-05-2002, 02:48 PM

I had a long response composed to several of the excellent points raised so far, but I got booted off the Internet before I could post it and couldn't recover what I wrote. Maddening!

I'll try to keep it short and stick to just one point. Regarding rape fantasies, most people are reacting with a firm "Not Me." However, I think we have a definitional problem here, in that many things would fit under the category rape fantasy. Pick up any romance novel--when the lustful, handsome pirate captain rips the bodice of the captured princess, isn't this a portrayal of rape? Wasn't it implied "spousal rape" when Rhett Butler carried Scarlett screaming and kicking up the staircase in Gone With The Wind? If rape is defined as an act of forcing one person to have sex with another, a lot of common fantasies would fall under that category.

Also, getting back to my main point--is it immoral to have a rape fantasy, or is it only immoral to act on a rape fantasy to try and make it a reality?

The AntiChris · 05-05-2002, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GPLindsey:
Also, getting back to my main point--is it immoral to have a rape fantasy, or is it only immoral to act on a rape fantasy to try and make it a reality?

Thinking the thought is purely personal and as such it affects no one else and therefore, on the face of it, it would not seem to be a moral issue.

However, to me, rape appears to be a special case.

As someone who is at loss to see the attraction of sexual gratification with an unwilling partner, I would be concerned about the potential of someone who had such fantasies to actually enact their "suppressed" desires. Presumably, people who rape are unlikely to have previously felt any aversion to the idea of unconsentaneous sex?

Chris

abe smith · 05-06-2002, 06:12 AM

Way back in the Bad Old Days when I use' to be an RC, entertaining & enjoying naughty thoughts was a confessible "sin", the culpability of which depended on a lot of variables; the simple way to deal w/ this {"If you think you shd'n"t confess it, confess it."} wd have been to lay it out through the grillwork as tersely as possible to the guy on the other side, who would know what to ask you about it, and what to advise. In fact, WHETHER YOU"RE A CATHOLIC OR NOT, if this sort of thing is preying on your conscience, making you uneasy, giving you bad times, Hey, nothing stopping you from asking a priest, in or out of the box, to hear your problem & help you w/ it. Just don't take the response too seriously; or, could get a second opinion. A young priest is probably smarter to deal w/ this than some Manichaean Irishman....Worth a try. Abe

echidna · 05-07-2002, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Are reprehensible thoughts and desires, if never acted upon, immoral?

Yes, although not so much as the action.

Yes, from time to time we are all immoral in thought, word and deed.

Whether we like it or not, our thoughts translate consciouslesly or subconsciously into our actions. Someone who has a rape fantasy about a colleague, cannot interact entirely healthily with that colleague.

No, I have never had a rape fantasy.

HelenM · 05-07-2002, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The AntiChris:
Presumably, people who rape are unlikely to have previously felt any aversion to the idea of unconsentaneous sex?

I'm not sure that's true. If someone does recreational drugs does that mean they've never felt any misgivings about whether that's self-destructive?

My guess is that it's more like one of those instances where the impulse of the moment overrides all the reasons not to do whatever-it-is that in quieter, calmer, happier moments, the person is not so driven towards.

And I wonder whether fantasizing might, for some, make the difference when the person has that impulse, over whether the person 'acts out' the fantasy or has the strength to say 'no'.

love
Helen

HelenM · 05-07-2002, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GPLindsey:
I had a long response composed to several of the excellent points raised so far, but I got booted off the Internet before I could post it and couldn't recover what I wrote. Maddening!

Been there, done that and am further irritated when people respond "you should write your posts somewhere else first!" (Not because it isn't good advice but because it is!

)

I'll try to keep it short and stick to just one point.

That never hurts anyway

(And I think you did a good job of that btw)

Regarding rape fantasies, most people are reacting with a firm "Not Me." However, I think we have a definitional problem here, in that many things would fit under the category rape fantasy. Pick up any romance novel--when the lustful, handsome pirate captain rips the bodice of the captured princess, isn't this a portrayal of rape? Wasn't it implied "spousal rape" when Rhett Butler carried Scarlett screaming and kicking up the staircase in Gone With The Wind? If rape is defined as an act of forcing one person to have sex with another, a lot of common fantasies would fall under that category.

I think these are great points. One can read all sorts of messages into the Rhett and Scarlett scene, for example.

I mean, was he giving her what she really wanted and was her resistance her way of getting it? Perhaps, in this case, but it's dangerous to infer that all women are that way!!!

Fantasies are by nature, not reality and that's part of the danger of them. You could fantasize that women like being raped and evidently young men often do have that belief, that women like being coerced into sex, when they show some resistance. I read that somewhere. Here, probably. I think that's scary, myself.

However, I can believe, otoh, that often men are more interested in physical sex than women, so it could be true that men are more easily persuaded into the act than women. In which case it's not necessarily wrong for a man to be...strategic?

But as soon as I say this I expect someone will argue that women are just as interested in sex as men, or if not, then it's because of religious conditioning that sex is 'bad' or some such thing...

I don't know. I know that Christians (in talking about the marriage relationship, of course

) often say men are more 'ready' for sex anytime than women. Who knows...I don't know.

Also, getting back to my main point--is it immoral to have a rape fantasy, or is it only immoral to act on a rape fantasy to try and make it a reality?

If you think that fantasizing rape, say, affects your behavior and attitude towards women, then I can't see how you could argue that fantasizing is not immoral.

So it depends how powerful you think fantasies are. Personally, I believe they are quite powerful enough to influence our behavior towards others. So yes, I'd say they are immoral on those grounds because it's immoral to deliberately engage in thought patterns that lead to immoral treatment of others.

love
Helen

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-03-2002, 06:30 PM	#32
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Ditto - QoS .

05-03-2002, 10:20 PM	#33
Cutter Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,805	BTW, women's rape fantasies are more often than not actually referred to as 'ravishing' fantasies. They are also quite different to male rape fantasies. So your lady friends probably weren't lying to you AntiChris but their fantasies were probably quite different to what you were perhaps thinking they were. Coincidentally, seeing's how some people seem to have misunderstood me, I find rape as reprehensible as anyone else, I'd never do it. But I have had fantasies about it. Mind you, they mostly seem to have been in high school, can't recall having any recently. I suspect that they are probably mainly a puberty thing, when you think about nothing but sex, sex, sex - any where, any way, any how.

05-04-2002, 11:02 AM	#34
Zack Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 28	THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A THOUGHT CRIME! If I as a gay male choose to have a sexual fantasy about, well any man I choose to, there is no crime or question of morality involved. If I went around telling people it would be annoying but would not be a crime unless it led to some kind of stocking situaton. We are fortunate that we cannot read each others thoughts. We are all free to think anything we want at any time and to never have to answer to anybody about what we think.

05-05-2002, 02:48 PM	#35
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	I had a long response composed to several of the excellent points raised so far, but I got booted off the Internet before I could post it and couldn't recover what I wrote. Maddening! I'll try to keep it short and stick to just one point. Regarding rape fantasies, most people are reacting with a firm "Not Me." However, I think we have a definitional problem here, in that many things would fit under the category rape fantasy. Pick up any romance novel--when the lustful, handsome pirate captain rips the bodice of the captured princess, isn't this a portrayal of rape? Wasn't it implied "spousal rape" when Rhett Butler carried Scarlett screaming and kicking up the staircase in Gone With The Wind? If rape is defined as an act of forcing one person to have sex with another, a lot of common fantasies would fall under that category. Also, getting back to my main point--is it immoral to have a rape fantasy, or is it only immoral to act on a rape fantasy to try and make it a reality?

05-06-2002, 06:12 AM	#37
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Way back in the Bad Old Days when I use' to be an RC, entertaining & enjoying naughty thoughts was a confessible "sin", the culpability of which depended on a lot of variables; the simple way to deal w/ this {"If you think you shd'n"t confess it, confess it."} wd have been to lay it out through the grillwork as tersely as possible to the guy on the other side, who would know what to ask you about it, and what to advise. In fact, WHETHER YOU"RE A CATHOLIC OR NOT, if this sort of thing is preying on your conscience, making you uneasy, giving you bad times, Hey, nothing stopping you from asking a priest, in or out of the box, to hear your problem & help you w/ it. Just don't take the response too seriously; or, could get a second opinion. A young priest is probably smarter to deal w/ this than some Manichaean Irishman....Worth a try. Abe

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.