Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GPLindsey · 05-01-2002, 05:12 PM

I've always understood that moral/ethical issues involve "behavior" and a judgement regarding its consequences. But is Wishing and the Crime one?

Picture your typical Casper Milquetoast shoe salesman. He is charitable to those in need, kind to strangers, and respectful to co-workers and customers. He is a loving father, devoted husband, and caring son to his elderly parents. But at night, when his head hits the pillow, he likes to fill his mind with the most lurid, reprehensible thoughts one can imagine, as he drifts off into an S&M dreamscape. Cruelty, savagery, injustice excite him. He never tells anyone else about his fantasies, he never tries to act them out, and he doesn't secretly indulge them by day (buying porn or surfing naughty sites on the Net). He lives his ordinary life and takes his fantasies to the grave.

Is this person immoral? If so, how?

tronvillain · 05-01-2002, 06:34 PM

I certainly wouldn't call him immoral, but then I don't really care what goes on in people's heads as long as they behave. Of course, what goes on in people's heads often often affects how they behave, so I do care about it if it does. Of course, I wouldn't care even if the guy did indulge those fantasies by buying porn and surfing the net. I read a lot of sick stuff myself.

SmashingIdols · 05-01-2002, 08:51 PM

I think Mr. Milquetoast needs to get out more, let his hair down, and start enjoying life.

Clearly, the life you are detailing is a pressure cooker, and one day BANG. Maybe if he had some fun he wouldn't be harboring such thoughts; this person needs an outlet. I would recommend writing grisly tales for fun and profit.

However, saying that it happened exactly as you said, taking his demented fantasies of horrible deeds with him to the grave, he would be a very moral man indeed. Exceptionally.

Personally, I would like to know in detail exactly what his thoughts were...want to fill us in Casper...uhhh, I mean GP?

free12thinker · 05-02-2002, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GPLindsey:
<strong>I've always understood that moral/ethical issues involve "behavior" and a judgement regarding its consequences. But is Wishing and the Crime one?

Picture your typical Casper Milquetoast shoe salesman. He is charitable to those in need, kind to strangers, and respectful to co-workers and customers. He is a loving father, devoted husband, and caring son to his elderly parents. But at night, when his head hits the pillow, he likes to fill his mind with the most lurid, reprehensible thoughts one can imagine, as he drifts off into an S&M dreamscape. Cruelty, savagery, injustice excite him. He never tells anyone else about his fantasies, he never tries to act them out, and he doesn't secretly indulge them by day (buying porn or surfing naughty sites on the Net). He lives his ordinary life and takes his fantasies to the grave.

Is this person immoral? If so, how?</strong>

I see no immorality as he has not negatively impacted anyone by mere thoughts. In fact, I respect his resolve and ability to channel his energy elsewhere. He must be lonely, but he doens't let it get the best of him.

GPLindsey · 05-02-2002, 05:27 PM

I agree with everyone here, except of course the Freudian slip confusing Casper with GP. There have been no takers yet to argue the point that mere thoughts are immoral. I had hoped some Xian wandering on to this post might have made an attempt to argue that sinning in one's heart is just as bad as doing the deed, as Jesus has argued.

I don't think Casper is immoral for a couple reasons. First, as said in my post, I think that moral and ethical questions are concerned with actions and how they impact on others and the environment. Now, one might argue that engaging in a willful daydream/fantasy is an action of sorts, and that obsessing on such thoughts might impact negatively on the individual (becomes withdrawn from more constructive or edifying thoughts or activities). However, my scenario wasn't about dreams/fantasies that slip into mental illness and obsession, but the run-of-the-mill, "beast within" variety. I think that it would be far healthier to our society if we did not lay the tag "immoral" on people who take pleasure in the stray impure thought that runs through their heads, so long as they never act on them.

Second, there are only 24 hours in the day and humans need, on average, about 8 hours of sleep a night. Extrapolating, this means that 1/3rd of our lives are spent sleeping! I think that we should all claim that 1/3rd of our lives as a guilt-free zone, where we can be entirely selfish and let out whatever demons are in us to run and play. It doesn't hurt anybody and it's probably a very healthy release valve.

Now, I don't remember the author, but here's a poem that is germaine to this issue and might be quite useful on a date:

It is said by learned friars
that wishing and the crime are one.
That God punishes desires,
as much as if the deed were done.

Now if wishing damns us,
Then you and I are damned to all our
heart's content.
Come then, let us enjoy
some PLEASURE for our punishment.

Christopher Lord · 05-02-2002, 06:37 PM

Quote:

However, saying that it happened exactly as you said, taking his demented fantasies of horrible deeds with him to the grave, he would be a very moral man indeed. Exceptionally.

I agree with the last part of this sentence profusely. The most moral person I can imagine would be someone with unimaginably evil thoughts contstantly bubling up, and yet able to keep them down somehow his/her whole life. Not so much as throwing a punch at a pillow.

HelenM · 05-02-2002, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GPLindsey:
<strong>I've always understood that moral/ethical issues involve "behavior" and a judgement regarding its consequences. But is Wishing and the Crime one?

Picture your typical Casper Milquetoast shoe salesman. He is charitable to those in need, kind to strangers, and respectful to co-workers and customers. He is a loving father, devoted husband, and caring son to his elderly parents. But at night, when his head hits the pillow, he likes to fill his mind with the most lurid, reprehensible thoughts one can imagine, as he drifts off into an S&M dreamscape. Cruelty, savagery, injustice excite him. He never tells anyone else about his fantasies, he never tries to act them out, and he doesn't secretly indulge them by day (buying porn or surfing naughty sites on the Net). He lives his ordinary life and takes his fantasies to the grave.</strong>

Is it realistic that he will never act on his fantasies, though?

Don't you think he'd be tempted to, after a while?

I mean, who can be satisfied with fantasies in the long term?

What do you think?

love
Helen

DRFseven · 05-02-2002, 08:05 PM

Quote:

GP: There have been no takers yet to argue the point that mere thoughts are immoral.

Well, then, you haven't talked to Jimmy Carter. I remember while he was running for prez his media people ran some sort of a publicity blitz for him that showed him walking down the beach and airing his thoughts, one of which was that he had "lusted in his heart" after other women (poor Rosalynn!) and that that was just as bad a sin as commiting the act for which he lusted. Can you imagine anyone saying such a thing now in a presidential campaign?

MadMordigan · 05-03-2002, 03:15 AM

Is this person immoral? If so, how?

A more primary question is how, if he never acted on these fantasies, would we even know about them?

Even if he admitted he had these fantasies, how would we distinguish that he was telling the truth and that he actually had them?

Since we cannot even tell that these 'thoughts' exist, how could we possibly pass judgement on them?

Cutter · 05-03-2002, 04:37 AM

Anyone who tells you they've never had a murder fantasy at some point in their life is a liar.

Any man who tells you they've never had a rape fantasy at some point in their life is a liar.

Does everyone commit murder? No.

Do all men rape? No.

As far as I'm concerned, such thoughts aren't immoral.

05-01-2002, 05:12 PM	#1
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	Are reprehensible thoughts and desires, if never acted upon, immoral? I've always understood that moral/ethical issues involve "behavior" and a judgement regarding its consequences. But is Wishing and the Crime one? Picture your typical Casper Milquetoast shoe salesman. He is charitable to those in need, kind to strangers, and respectful to co-workers and customers. He is a loving father, devoted husband, and caring son to his elderly parents. But at night, when his head hits the pillow, he likes to fill his mind with the most lurid, reprehensible thoughts one can imagine, as he drifts off into an S&M dreamscape. Cruelty, savagery, injustice excite him. He never tells anyone else about his fantasies, he never tries to act them out, and he doesn't secretly indulge them by day (buying porn or surfing naughty sites on the Net). He lives his ordinary life and takes his fantasies to the grave. Is this person immoral? If so, how?

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05-01-2002, 06:34 PM	#2
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	I certainly wouldn't call him immoral, but then I don't really care what goes on in people's heads as long as they behave. Of course, what goes on in people's heads often often affects how they behave, so I do care about it if it does. Of course, I wouldn't care even if the guy did indulge those fantasies by buying porn and surfing the net. I read a lot of sick stuff myself.

05-01-2002, 08:51 PM	#3
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	I think Mr. Milquetoast needs to get out more, let his hair down, and start enjoying life. Clearly, the life you are detailing is a pressure cooker, and one day BANG. Maybe if he had some fun he wouldn't be harboring such thoughts; this person needs an outlet. I would recommend writing grisly tales for fun and profit. However, saying that it happened exactly as you said, taking his demented fantasies of horrible deeds with him to the grave, he would be a very moral man indeed. Exceptionally. Personally, I would like to know in detail exactly what his thoughts were...want to fill us in Casper...uhhh, I mean GP?

05-02-2002, 05:27 PM	#5
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	I agree with everyone here, except of course the Freudian slip confusing Casper with GP. There have been no takers yet to argue the point that mere thoughts are immoral. I had hoped some Xian wandering on to this post might have made an attempt to argue that sinning in one's heart is just as bad as doing the deed, as Jesus has argued. I don't think Casper is immoral for a couple reasons. First, as said in my post, I think that moral and ethical questions are concerned with actions and how they impact on others and the environment. Now, one might argue that engaging in a willful daydream/fantasy is an action of sorts, and that obsessing on such thoughts might impact negatively on the individual (becomes withdrawn from more constructive or edifying thoughts or activities). However, my scenario wasn't about dreams/fantasies that slip into mental illness and obsession, but the run-of-the-mill, "beast within" variety. I think that it would be far healthier to our society if we did not lay the tag "immoral" on people who take pleasure in the stray impure thought that runs through their heads, so long as they never act on them. Second, there are only 24 hours in the day and humans need, on average, about 8 hours of sleep a night. Extrapolating, this means that 1/3rd of our lives are spent sleeping! I think that we should all claim that 1/3rd of our lives as a guilt-free zone, where we can be entirely selfish and let out whatever demons are in us to run and play. It doesn't hurt anybody and it's probably a very healthy release valve. Now, I don't remember the author, but here's a poem that is germaine to this issue and might be quite useful on a date: It is said by learned friars that wishing and the crime are one. That God punishes desires, as much as if the deed were done. Now if wishing damns us, Then you and I are damned to all our heart's content. Come then, let us enjoy some PLEASURE for our punishment.

05-03-2002, 03:15 AM	#9
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	Is this person immoral? If so, how? A more primary question is how, if he never acted on these fantasies, would we even know about them? Even if he admitted he had these fantasies, how would we distinguish that he was telling the truth and that he actually had them? Since we cannot even tell that these 'thoughts' exist, how could we possibly pass judgement on them?

05-03-2002, 04:37 AM	#10
Cutter Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,805	Anyone who tells you they've never had a murder fantasy at some point in their life is a liar. Any man who tells you they've never had a rape fantasy at some point in their life is a liar. Does everyone commit murder? No. Do all men rape? No. As far as I'm concerned, such thoughts aren't immoral.

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