Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 10-02-2002, 12:15 PM

I still think it's not accurate to talk about nature making or not making mistakes. It's all nature.

I used to look down on people who got cosmetic surgery. I had this view that it was nobler to work with what you've got.

Lately though, I've questioned that attitude. Why is it noble/moral to accept your current body if you don't like it? Why should someone suffer with a body they don't like when others have bodies more to their liking through no effort of their own? If you've got the money to make a change, and the change will truely make you happy, more power to you.

Nature is a mindless idiot.

Jamie

Keith Russell · 10-02-2002, 01:15 PM

Greetings:

I view my vision as a problem, and wear glasses to 'correct' my vision to an 'acceptable' standard.

If someone else views their sex as a problem, and wishes to change it, why is that a problem?

As far as keeping children away from the person, that's a parent's right--though you cannot protect your children from reality forever, and they might be able to understand better than so-and-so is no longer a man, than why their parenst won't let them see 'so and so' any more.

Keith.

Glory · 10-02-2002, 02:07 PM

Regarding the Kuu's acquaintence and the original question of this thread. Should/would children be kept away from a family member who is a transexual?

Initially I said no and I stand by that answer. However, I spoke with my mother last night and she had some interesting things to say. A small child might not be able to understand that the change happening to Grandpa are by his choice. A child might think that if Grandpa can go from a he to a she, it could happen to them. Obviously this is a scary idea. Also obvious is that it is only one of about a billion possible ideas that might occur to a small child. Considering this led me to the notion that the person under going the procedure should be able to turn to his or her psychiatrist, as part of the process is being under the care of a psychiatrist, for help in telling family members about this decision, particularly young children. Clearly it is very difficult for transexuals to do deal with this consequence of their decision. Does this not seem like one of the myriad reasons for requiring psychiatric care to begin with?

Glory

Kuu · 10-02-2002, 03:01 PM

Maybe the whole family need to be counselled together, including the children, to come to terms with what the grandfather wants to do.

I think that to cut off the children from the grandfather could do alot more harm in the long run. The kids would either have to be told the truth (which means they will have to deal with it anyway) or they will have to be lied to which is wrong. How will they feel if they are lied to, sooner or later they will find out the tuth somehow?

Nialler · 10-03-2002, 07:38 AM

My first reaction to this dilemma is exactly as in the previous post.

It sounds like th eperson undergoing the operation will have lots of counselling, and I'm prepared to guess that counselling is also available for his/her relatives.

I'd probably go without the children first and at that session determine what are the best ways to talk them through what's happening. If their presence was required (which I doubt), I'd go along with that.

I doubt that this is the first time that they've encountered this situation.

Good luck to all concerned.

Glory · 10-03-2002, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Maybe the whole family need to be counselled together, including the children, to come to terms with what the grandfather wants to do.

This really should have occurred to me earlier.

Quote:

I doubt that this is the first time that they've encountered this situation.

My thoughts exactly.

Glory

jlowder · 10-06-2002, 01:35 PM

Hi Jaz,

Quote:

Originally posted by jaz:
I think a lot of you have misinterpreted my reasons for not wanting to associate with transexuals.

I haven't made this decision lightly. I happen to be a lesbian, so I am well aware of effects of intolerance, and how it feels to be rejected on what I perceive to be a minor detail. While I don't think that been a transsexual is a minor detail, I'm sure that is exactly how they feel. I have put some thought into this stance. Ultimately I am doing to transexuals what some people do to me. In some cases (I believe a majority, but I am biased), it's for different reasons, but the outcome is the same.

Speaking as an 'outsider' to this debate, I find it intriguing that a lesbian would have this sort of issue with transsexuals. I don't mean that in a judgmental way, and I do not believe you are intolerant. But I do find your position intriguing.

Quote:

It's not a simply matter of intolerance, or a lack of understanding. It's a disagreement. Transsexuals have the right to do what ever they want, but I don't have to approve of that behaviour. Just as many people don't approve of my homosexuality. I wish they did, but that's not the reality. That isn't intolerance, or even a lack of understanding, it's just a different view point. And personally, I think what really matters is what you do with that view.

If I may ask you a personal question, then, why do you feel that lesbianism is acceptable behavior but transsexualism is not?

Quote:

I think the behaviour, the operation, is wrong. I'll come to the why arguments later in my post. And I have to decide what sort of people I want around me. Because I think that behaviour is wrong, I choose not to be friends with transexuals, and I choose not to have them around my kids. It's not because I think that after the operation they turn into the big bad wolf. They don't. They simply endorse behaviour that I don't want around me. It's the same as choosing not to be friends with someone if you know they are a chronic liar. Naturally, if I don't want to associate with them on a personal basis, I don't want my kids to. I have to stress I am talking about on a personal basis, I would have no problem with the transexual at work, or at the local supermarket. I wouldn't completely cut them off and keep my kids completely separate. As lisarea said, they are human and they deserve the same respect as anyone else. I just choose not to be on a personal basis with them.

I understand the distinction you are making. Why do you feel that lesbianism is morally acceptable but transsexual "behavior is wrong"?

(snip)

Quote:

Onto, why I feel it is wrong.

I've basically stated why already. I don't think nature makes these kinds of mistakes. babelfish gave some examples earlier of cases where nature supposedly has made similiar mistakes. I don't think they are comparable. None of the examples are, IMHO, in the same realm of having 2 very contradictory, and to me very interconnected, attributes. As I don't believe a mistake has been made in relation to the body, I don't think it needs to be fixed. Obviously something has gone wrong somewhere, and I think that is what needs to be addressed. I have a problem with people who won't address the problem but rather choose to fix the outcome of the problem. That is what I see happening with sex change operations. They're fixing the outcome, not the problem. I completely disagree with that and do not endorse it. Especially when it's involving something which is interlinked to who you are, and has the ability to really affect those around you. And I don't want to be involved it in.

Let's assume, then, that nature does NOT make these sorts of mistakes. So what? Why would it follow that getting a sex change operation is wrong? And how is getting a sex change operation morally different from having a homosexual relationship? Are you claiming that lesbianism is morally acceptable because nature did make a mistake with respect to the desires of women who happen to be lesbians? Or do you believe that lesbian desires are not the result of nature and instead the result of a choice? Basically, I'm trying to understand what, on your view, makes homosexual sex morally acceptable but sex change operations morally unacceptable.

Sincerely,

Jeffery Jay Lowder

fanatina · 10-06-2002, 05:02 PM

I had a very close friend who, over the period of a few years, went from being a man to being a woman. She had an ex-wife, several children, and living parents, but had waited till relatively late in life to do it (the children were all grown). I saw first-hand the effect the transformation had on her co-workers and friends, and from her, heard about the effect on her family. I must say it takes a strong person with a lot of conviction to go through it, cause there is certainly a lot of ridicule, derision, and rejection involved! Plus, it can't help but hurt some people. Even grown children can have difficulty making the transition from calling you Dad to calling you--what? Mom? Then there's the high school reunions, lots of fun there!

It was a no-brainer for me as to whether to allow my friend around my son, but my parents were furious about it. They treated her like a freak of nature, and couldn't believe I'd expose their precious grandchild to her. Can you imagine going through life knowing people are going to think that about you? I tell you again, you have to be unbelievably strong and determined to go through with it! Fortunately my friend was able to find happiness, love, and success with her new life. I bet it doesn't turn out that well most of the time, though.

fanatina · 10-06-2002, 05:22 PM

I want to add to what I just posted here, cause I went back and read another post I'd like to comment on. Jaz, my friend (see above post if you haven't read it) had female levels of hormones in his body. He didn't consider himself a homosexual, even though he was attracted to men. He felt like a woman. But he did his best to deny/ignore/overcome those feelings, and he was a successful businessperson, a good father, and all that. When he was divorced and his children grown, he finally felt free to be who he really was. I think there most certainly are cases where it is justified to make a correction, and as I tried to emphasize in the previous post, it is so difficult for them to make this choice, that I doubt it is ever done lightly. The doctors and therapists make sure of that! Also, another situation that wasn't applicable to my friend, but which would call for a decision to be made, would be hermaphroditism. Would you say that it is wrong for the person to choose which sex to stick with? Just because two sets of genitalia aren't present in someone like my friend, doesn't mean that an accident hasn't occurred.

jaz · 10-07-2002, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Glory:
Mistakes do occurr naturally. I couldn't disagree more with you on this point. Mostly because the glasses I have worn since I was three years old to correct the effects of the defects in my eyes are giving me headache.

Once the psychiatrists decide that the best course of sction is to treat the body rather than just the mind what's the problem? You say you disapprove because you don't think nature makes mistakes? What does that mean? You seem to imply that you disapprove of any surgical procedure which alters what is naturally occurring. What about heart defects or or a club foot? How are these defects any different? Why do you think you know better than the doctors on this?

I see your eye problem quite differently. Not so much as a mistake by nature, but as a fault with your eyes. There is nothing wrong with the sexual organs of transexuals, other than they don't like them.

I have no problem with surgical procedures. If there is a problem. However, if it's not broke, don't fix it.

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10-02-2002, 12:15 PM	#41
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I still think it's not accurate to talk about nature making or not making mistakes. It's all nature. I used to look down on people who got cosmetic surgery. I had this view that it was nobler to work with what you've got. Lately though, I've questioned that attitude. Why is it noble/moral to accept your current body if you don't like it? Why should someone suffer with a body they don't like when others have bodies more to their liking through no effort of their own? If you've got the money to make a change, and the change will truely make you happy, more power to you. Nature is a mindless idiot. Jamie

10-02-2002, 01:15 PM	#42
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: I view my vision as a problem, and wear glasses to 'correct' my vision to an 'acceptable' standard. If someone else views their sex as a problem, and wishes to change it, why is that a problem? As far as keeping children away from the person, that's a parent's right--though you cannot protect your children from reality forever, and they might be able to understand better than so-and-so is no longer a man, than why their parenst won't let them see 'so and so' any more. Keith.

10-02-2002, 02:07 PM	#43
Glory Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: b Posts: 673	Regarding the Kuu's acquaintence and the original question of this thread. Should/would children be kept away from a family member who is a transexual? Initially I said no and I stand by that answer. However, I spoke with my mother last night and she had some interesting things to say. A small child might not be able to understand that the change happening to Grandpa are by his choice. A child might think that if Grandpa can go from a he to a she, it could happen to them. Obviously this is a scary idea. Also obvious is that it is only one of about a billion possible ideas that might occur to a small child. Considering this led me to the notion that the person under going the procedure should be able to turn to his or her psychiatrist, as part of the process is being under the care of a psychiatrist, for help in telling family members about this decision, particularly young children. Clearly it is very difficult for transexuals to do deal with this consequence of their decision. Does this not seem like one of the myriad reasons for requiring psychiatric care to begin with? Glory

10-02-2002, 03:01 PM	#44
Kuu Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Tasmania Posts: 710	Maybe the whole family need to be counselled together, including the children, to come to terms with what the grandfather wants to do. I think that to cut off the children from the grandfather could do alot more harm in the long run. The kids would either have to be told the truth (which means they will have to deal with it anyway) or they will have to be lied to which is wrong. How will they feel if they are lied to, sooner or later they will find out the tuth somehow?

10-03-2002, 07:38 AM	#45
Nialler Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Paris Posts: 8,473	My first reaction to this dilemma is exactly as in the previous post. It sounds like th eperson undergoing the operation will have lots of counselling, and I'm prepared to guess that counselling is also available for his/her relatives. I'd probably go without the children first and at that session determine what are the best ways to talk them through what's happening. If their presence was required (which I doubt), I'd go along with that. I doubt that this is the first time that they've encountered this situation. Good luck to all concerned.

10-06-2002, 05:02 PM	#48
fanatina Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 9	I had a very close friend who, over the period of a few years, went from being a man to being a woman. She had an ex-wife, several children, and living parents, but had waited till relatively late in life to do it (the children were all grown). I saw first-hand the effect the transformation had on her co-workers and friends, and from her, heard about the effect on her family. I must say it takes a strong person with a lot of conviction to go through it, cause there is certainly a lot of ridicule, derision, and rejection involved! Plus, it can't help but hurt some people. Even grown children can have difficulty making the transition from calling you Dad to calling you--what? Mom? Then there's the high school reunions, lots of fun there! It was a no-brainer for me as to whether to allow my friend around my son, but my parents were furious about it. They treated her like a freak of nature, and couldn't believe I'd expose their precious grandchild to her. Can you imagine going through life knowing people are going to think that about you? I tell you again, you have to be unbelievably strong and determined to go through with it! Fortunately my friend was able to find happiness, love, and success with her new life. I bet it doesn't turn out that well most of the time, though.

10-06-2002, 05:22 PM	#49
fanatina Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 9	I want to add to what I just posted here, cause I went back and read another post I'd like to comment on. Jaz, my friend (see above post if you haven't read it) had female levels of hormones in his body. He didn't consider himself a homosexual, even though he was attracted to men. He felt like a woman. But he did his best to deny/ignore/overcome those feelings, and he was a successful businessperson, a good father, and all that. When he was divorced and his children grown, he finally felt free to be who he really was. I think there most certainly are cases where it is justified to make a correction, and as I tried to emphasize in the previous post, it is so difficult for them to make this choice, that I doubt it is ever done lightly. The doctors and therapists make sure of that! Also, another situation that wasn't applicable to my friend, but which would call for a decision to be made, would be hermaphroditism. Would you say that it is wrong for the person to choose which sex to stick with? Just because two sets of genitalia aren't present in someone like my friend, doesn't mean that an accident hasn't occurred.

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