Kuu

would you keep your children away from her/him?

I was having a discussion about this in a chatroom.

One of the chatters said her friend's father was going to have such an operation and her friend was going to stop her children, aged 3 and 4 from seeing their granfather/grandmother.

My opinion is that if the the grandparent has a loving relationship with the grandchildren than a change of sex won't affect that love too much. The children will evenually adapt to Grandpa becoming grandma. To deny them a relationship with their grandparent would be more harmful than letting them have a relationship with the grandfather who became a grandma.

ChrisJGQ

Agreed. I can think of no rational reason to keep children away. It seems like more of a basic emotional response. 'That's icky!'

Lord Asriel

There is no rational reason to deny grandchildren a relationship with their grandparent, but practical considerations will also come into play here. Just how do you explain such a thing to children of 3 and 4 years old? And what happens when they go to school and talk about their "Grandpa who became a grandma"?

I admit I'm a little uncertain on the medical ethics of the sex-change operation. Is it performed in order to correct a perceived "mistake of nature", or is it performed for the mental health of the patient where it is deemed better for them to have an illusion of biological femininity than tackle their "delusion" of being born the wrong gender?

Amen-Moses

Why should there be any more of a moral question regarding being born male and becoming female than say being born with red hair and dying it blonde?

Personally I would just tell my kids that peoples bodies are theirs to do with as they please, tattoo them, peirce them, fill them with harmful chemicals or swap bollocks for breasts, it's all the same to me.

Amen-Moses

Lord Asriel

I don't think its fair to lump a sex-change operation in with such cosmetic activities as dying hair, tattoing, piercing or even branding.
Wheras all of these are legitimate means for a person to express or discover themselves, gender realignment goes much further into personal identity. Are we saying that we as a species are sufficiently wise to declare that nature has made a mistake? If so, what are the implications of that?

Does this mean you have no problem with self-harm (cutting one's arm with a razor blade)?

Captain Pedantic

Children ought to learn about the world so that they are better equipped to deal with it.

So much misery is caused by ignorance.

It's not as if the children have to know all the gory details either. That's the thing that gets me with these fundies. They think that if children are learning that sex exists, they must also be viewing hardcore pornographic depctions of fisting. People will suppose that if a child is told anything about sex changes, they will have to be told every detail about the medical procedures. This is simply not true. Frankly, little kids are just learning about the world anyway, and a lot of things seem odd to them. If they are told that granddad went to the doctor to have an operation because he wants to be a lady, and that he wants to be "granny" from now on, they'll probably not be as traumatised by it as an adult.

Or maybe I'm talking to the wrong kids. But since I know a four year old who's obsessed with death, and many little children who have a thing about poo, I think it's fair to say that kids are more robust than people think.

Lord Asriel

I quite agree, and I'm sure that the kids in question would have no problem with their grandad's decision to become a lady. But does the parent have a moral obligation to tell the kids just how unusual this is, and just how many people think it is a "wrong" or "bad" thing?

If those kids go into the playground and start talking about their grandad, they're going to get the piss ripped out of them. Surely they should be told to expect that?

Ab_Normal

Nope.

JerryM

True transexualism is considered a neurologic disorder. The "gender identity" function of the brain is felt to somehow be the opposite of the genetic/anatomic sex. True transexualism is a lifelong disorder--the individual has always felt that his/her body is not what his/her brain says it is. It requires a period of observation and psychological testing by an experienced pyschiatrist to make a proper diagnosis. The treatment extends over years. Sex correction surgery is not performed right off the bat. The person is treated with hormones for at least a year, along with assuming the role, dressing, and behaving as a person of the desired sex. Only if this is successful will surgery be considered--and it usually requires more than one procedure--especially female-to-male conversion. So a proper gender transformation would be a more gradual process. Certainly it would require some explaining to a child of what is happening to her relative, but real transexualism is a medical condition, not a character flaw or behavioral perversion.

Glory

These children are extremely young. In all likelyhood, if they were told that their granddad is now grandma they would have a few questions and move on. They would probably find alot of humour in the idea of grandad wearing dresses. In time they may not even remember that grandma was ever different.

This man has to undergo alot of psychological counseling and evaluation in order to receive this operation. He also has to live as a woman for over a year before the procedure. Doctors do not take this procedure lightly. It sounds as if his daughter cannot accept what is happening/ has happened to her father and is frightened and angry. I can't blame her for feeling that way. I think she needs counseling as well. If she can come to terms with it she will see that depriving her children of a relationship with their grandparents, regardless of their gender, is not a good idea and that her father does not pose any sort danger.

This is a tough one for her, but kids can and do deal with alot of things in stride.

Glory