Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 10-04-2002, 10:49 AM

Vanderzyden has avoided following up on a challenge he originally posed in the <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000635" target="_blank">Why would god send me to hell?</a> thread. Let's briefly review the exchange:

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:
They don't even agree with themselves. The gospels contradict each other.

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
No sir, they do not. This is a common objection made by those who have not read them carefully nor undertaken to understand the meaning.

Please tell me, in your own words, what is the single most obvious contradiction in the gospels, or the entire NT for that matter. Please demonstrate your case with examples from the text.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Garrett:

I gave the Judas example in response to Vandy's inerrancy challenge on the prior page.

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:


You are in error, sir. I did not present an inerrancy challenge.

Perhaps you have a unassailable defintion of inerrancy that you could share with us.

At this point, Vanderzyden bailed.

Several of us are still scratching our heads over just what he meant when he implied that the gospels do not contradict each other and asked for examples of alleged contradictions, before abandoning the discussion upon being offended by Ron Garrett.

I'm still waiting for Vanderzyden to demonstrate to the rest of us (never mind that terribly rude and offensive Ron Garrett for the moment) how the two stories of Judas do not contradict each other, or how two stories that contradict each other do not suggest that at least one of them is errant, or what his definition of inerrancy might be to encompass two completely different--some might say contradictory--stories.

Now, for many of us, contradictions within the gospels imply errancy of the gospels, and this leads many of us to the next logical question: if certain things in the Bible are shown to be wrong or untrue, how can we be certain that anything it says about Jesus or God, up to and including the existence of Jesus or God, is not also errant?

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

RJS · 10-04-2002, 11:02 AM

seems like the wrong forum.

MrDarwin · 10-04-2002, 11:09 AM

From the thread where this started:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:


M,

Do you think I care about reputation? It would seem that you think I am biting my nails in anticipation of how I am perceived by you fine people. Well, let me dispel that myth: I don't.

Anyway, you contradict yourself. If you really thought I was "foolish", then why do you continue to pursue me to address the Judas contradiction?

Well, I won't fragment this thread. I will start another.

(Do you really think you have me stumped?)

Vanderzyden

Oh no, I'm sure you have a very nice answer all ready to go. I'm just curious why you avoided providing it in the other thread.

And no, it's not your reputation you should be concerned about; it's the reputation of Christians in general, whether you believe you represent them or not.

(And believe me, I pursue many foolish things in life. I make no claims to be perfect, nor infallible.)

Ron Garrett · 10-04-2002, 11:28 AM

I can hear it now:

McD :"Your arm's off!"
V: "I've had worse."
McD: "You lie!"
V: "Have at you!"

We've been over this ground how many times?

T: "There are no contradictions."
A: "Well here's several hundred."
T: "I can explain those. It's a miracle."
A: "That's no explanation."
T: "You're obviously ignorant of my perfect scirptures and you obviously have never studied them and don't know what you're talking about. You're also deceived by the devil."
A: "Maybe you're possessed by the devil and that's who has taken your brain offline."
T: "If you're going to insult me I'm not talking to you anymore."

Why bother? You'd get a more intelligent response from my cat.

Mageth · 10-04-2002, 12:06 PM

I've heard an unsatisfactory "stock" answer to the Judas suicide contradiction several times from xians. I started to post it, but I'll wait to see if Van posts it or a variation thereof.

Ron Garrett · 10-04-2002, 12:20 PM

I've heard it too, but even the ones I heard it from had to admit the explanation even sounds lame to them.

MrDarwin · 10-04-2002, 12:49 PM

Yes, I've heard the standard (if somewhat convoluted) answer too. For the moment, let's just wait and see what Vanderzyden comes up with.

wade-w · 10-04-2002, 01:42 PM

I'm betting he doesn't answer at all. Vanderzyden has been challenged to provide solid answers (and references) many times before. Why would he start actually providing them now? When confronted with no other out, he claims to be insulted, or that his opponent "isn't serious" and leaves in a huff. That, or he completely ignores the issue.

B. H. Manners · 10-04-2002, 08:20 PM

Hello Everyone,

I am going to move this thread to Biblical Criticism and Archeology where it will gain more responses. Thank you for your contribution to this discussion and have a good day.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]

10-04-2002, 08:20 PM	#9
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Hello Everyone, I am going to move this thread to Biblical Criticism and Archeology where it will gain more responses. Thank you for your contribution to this discussion and have a good day. [ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

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10-04-2002, 11:02 AM	#2
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	seems like the wrong forum.

10-04-2002, 11:28 AM	#4
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	I can hear it now: McD :"Your arm's off!" V: "I've had worse." McD: "You lie!" V: "Have at you!" We've been over this ground how many times? T: "There are no contradictions." A: "Well here's several hundred." T: "I can explain those. It's a miracle." A: "That's no explanation." T: "You're obviously ignorant of my perfect scirptures and you obviously have never studied them and don't know what you're talking about. You're also deceived by the devil." A: "Maybe you're possessed by the devil and that's who has taken your brain offline." T: "If you're going to insult me I'm not talking to you anymore." Why bother? You'd get a more intelligent response from my cat.

10-04-2002, 12:06 PM	#5
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I've heard an unsatisfactory "stock" answer to the Judas suicide contradiction several times from xians. I started to post it, but I'll wait to see if Van posts it or a variation thereof.

10-04-2002, 12:20 PM	#6
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	I've heard it too, but even the ones I heard it from had to admit the explanation even sounds lame to them.

10-04-2002, 12:49 PM	#7
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Yes, I've heard the standard (if somewhat convoluted) answer too. For the moment, let's just wait and see what Vanderzyden comes up with.

10-04-2002, 01:42 PM	#8
wade-w Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Silver City, New Mexico Posts: 1,872	I'm betting he doesn't answer at all. Vanderzyden has been challenged to provide solid answers (and references) many times before. Why would he start actually providing them now? When confronted with no other out, he claims to be insulted, or that his opponent "isn't serious" and leaves in a huff. That, or he completely ignores the issue.

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