Corgan Sow

I heard the Christian Democrats at Holland are pushing for Muslims to get segregated if they do not "assimilate" into their secular policy (incase they do well in the elections). That includes not wearing scarves or anything to cover their hair at school (for women or girls). Do you find that as violation of freedom to practice religion or vice-versa? Personally I think no one should be telling a Sikh to remove his turban or a Muslims girl to not wear scarfs to school because that is like forcing an atheist to recite a Christian prayer. What do you think?

beejay

Can you provide a reference to this news? I'm a little surprised by this, since I think of The Netherlands as a liberal country.

Christian Democrats in Holland are not like the right-wing Christians of the US.

But, if it were true, I would agree with your suggestion that this is an unacceptable infringement on a Muslim's freedom to practice religion.

Whether such an infringement is unconstitutional in The Netherlands, I do not know.

avalanche:ix

You're mistaken about this. Scarves are allowed, it's the traditional Chador that isn't, the chador is full body covering, leaving only the eyes. Educators rightly feel this infringes on communication both between students and between students and teachers.

incidentally, muslim schools support the decision to ban the chador.

dk

I think the issue should be handled differently. For example, many States in the US passed laws against masks. The law wasn't based on religion, but to stop criminals from hiding their identity in public. In reality the Law was passed to unmask the KKK. What we witness in Europe is something else, much more dangerous. A grass roots anti-immigrant movement. For example,

The cause of the friction is the Islamic workforce recruited because Europe can’t raised enough children to keep the infrastructure running. There is nothing more permanent than temporary immigrant workers and Muslims are prolific. Russian and European. Indigenous people under the stress of slow world economy have suddenly become conscious of their inadequacies, and resentful of the new recruits that seem to be taking over their countries This is exactly what happened after WW I when the boom of the1920s turned into the bust of the 1930s, only it was Jews from across Europe and Russia immigrating to Germany. I think this has the potential to become a major problem in the decades to come.

DarkBronzePlant

I think if they're that secular, I need to get me a one-way ticket!

fando

That's a good question. Do we enforce the philosophy and practice of liberty when encountering practices that our society feels inhibit liberty? Should the Burqua and Chador be banned because it goes against the spirit of freedom and legal/economic equality of the sexes?

I think yes. If we can't enforce the philosophy and practice of liberty and equality, then giving rights to practices and customs that are contrary will eventually errode the culture of liberty to a point where it no longer resembles the intention. What is liberty if it is used only to practice injustice?

avalanche:ix

simply not true.






the cause is a few populist politicians blaming immigrants, not the immigrants themselves. further adding to the problem is a problem america has faced for a lot longer than we have: ghetto forming. Immigrants tend to band together in the choice of where to live, tend not to learn the local language and legal system, and thus tend to pass this uneducated existence of their surrounding on to their children, which in turn leads to an increase in crime. it's pretty simple really, this isn't a racist issue.



and you're simply wrong about the causes of this 'problem', not to mention the severity, or lack thereof. It's true that there is a general intolerance of high religiosity, but the same is true for heavy christians in europe, it's not directed at islam, just those religions or strains of religion that breed intolerance and impact society and individuals in a negative manner.

i'm becoming quite annoyed with americans who think they can comment on the european situation based on a few sparse media reports. the truth is that this is not much of a problem, the 'problem' is magnified and focuses upon by media, both in europe and across, if we look at the stats and actual public opinion, it's not a problem.

avalanche:ix

what bothers me about people using examples such as this to argue that there's an increase in anti-muslim feelings or such, is the fact that these people ignore that muslims and their instutitions such as mosque's and muslim schools SUPPORT these state-decisions and actively enforce them. it's not the opression of religion, it's the fight against extremism.

Corgan Sow

Forgive me, but how on earth when covering one's head be considered against liberty? Care to define?

I think there is no harm wearing the chador, unless you think it is a potential terrorist threat like a turban. If you talk about religious practices like stoning adulterers or killing infidels, which is in fact against liberty, then the answer applies.

The problem I think involves all of us in seperation of church and religion is, do we become militant anti-religious or ensure that this benefits all freethinkers and religionists alike?

lpetrich

I wonder if such claims are nothing more than Allah-spam, as it might be called -- Muslim Fundie urban legends, just like Xian Fundie ones.