Christopher Lord

First, I want to apologize for opening a second poll on this subject. I felt that the options presented in crocodile deathroll's 'Free Will' poll were (with no disrespect!) too few, and too limited for such a topic.

The poll format does not suit this sort of question, but you'll just have to deal with it No one is more sick of the free will question than me. My hope is that these poll options properly represent as many positions as possible, and so thus open some eyes to the alternatives.

Personally, I think that the universe (and thus our brain) is deterministic. However, this does not mean that our actions are determined from our perspective (Option #2, I guess). Free will might ultimately be false, but it still has meaning within our own perspective on the universe. I choose to sit here and write, even if the fact that it was pre-determined to happen at the moment of the big-bang. Since the knowledge of my future acts are hidden, I might as well have free will.

Perhaps the problem people have with the words 'free will' is that they are loaded? If so, how am I to describe my choice to write this instead of reading a good book or studying?

Keith Russell

Greetings:

The phrase 'free will' is meaningless, and should be avioded.

Keith.

sweep

Personally, I don't have a problem with those words, but it is a subject that I devote some thought to, which aids me in my quest for meaning. In that they probably are value loaded, since freedom means something, and so too does will.

As for the question, if the notion of free will has some value, then you're bound by your will to follow this path. Of course, you really could use your brain, and make a strong effort to grow a new thought form. It might go something like this:

"I will not visit the internet. The internet is useless and does nothing for me. The computer screen hurts my brain. I feel more lonely on the computer. No-one is helping me, I must help my self."

and

"What do I really want to achieve in the long run. Is this helping me achieve my goals?"

See how you can use psychology to change your mind. A different frame of mind makes all the difference. Nurturing thought forms, helps to establish a frame of mind, compatible with your long term goals. Learn what feels best. Know that getting sidetracked or distracted is easy.

regards. *thinks about following own advice* Am i really typing to myself *wake up!!!!*

faustuz

I believe that the universe is deterministic and that there is no free will. Therefore I choose not to act.

Answerer

Well, I choose option one, not because it is what I believe but because it is the closest to my view. I believe that some things are pre-destined in life, for example where we are born, our behaviour, ethnic group, species etc(which none of the options have). However, I also believe that everybody have some inherent potential in them to change some of the events around them despite present or future.

Christopher Lord

In that case, wouldn't option one be a poor choice for you?

Lets see if i can clarify that.

When you say "everybody have some inherent potential in them to change", where does this change come from? if the universe is purely clockwork, would not there be no possible change?

Option one, to me, means that the universe is like a multidimensional crystal (in the literal sense!). If we could see the entire universe, we would see not only its space at one instance, but at all instances. Time therefore has an absolute form that can not change, since it is actually one of the dimensions of the crystal.

Thus, change would mean we can reconfigure the crystal from our current perspective.

If we can do this, how do you think we do it?

Christopher Lord

That actually agrees completely with what I ment in option two. It is VERY importaint in my opinion to believe you can change. But I also know that it is not possible to change in terms of absolute reality (if that even exists...)

Clearly a compromise is in order. I personally solve this problem by holding that our own 'sub-world' can be directed, even if it is implemented on a 'crystal substrate' to use the analogy above. This is similar to how we think of evolution. Its not directed, even though all of the results of it are already determined in absolute terms.

crocodile deathroll

I was considering making the poll even simpler.
Is free will an illusion . A yes, or B No, with a link to a relevent website like this one

Answerer

Hmm, are you trying to tell me that the sentence in option one, "We are automata, completely composed of physical processes. " carries the meaning as above? If so, I admit that I really don't know that you are actually refering to absolute time as I misunderstood processes for changes.

Christopher Lord

I dont know all the details on this sort of argument (i've invented it, but i'm sure someone has come up with it before), but essentially, if the universe is deterministic, and time is a dimension of the universe, then if we could see all of time it would be static from our view, and therefore none of the agents in the universe could change their path along this structure.

I think this sort of absolute rigidity is what makes some people dislike the concept of determinism.

On the other hand, if the universe is undeterministic (by quantum effects or by 'souls'), then what would the time dimension look like if you could step outside of the universe? I would picture it as extremely shifty, like a pot of boiling water.

But wouldn't that mean that there is simply an extra dimension of time, or 'meta-time', if you will? A pot of boiling water changes only over time, but at any one instance, isn't it static and unchanging? Since we are seeing 'animation', there must be more dimensions of time! In which case, we are not actually out of the universe yet! We can then back out and look at the entire universe (including meta-time) in the same way, and see if it is static or not. If not, back out again, until everything is static.

Once we have found a static form of the universe, we have proven that the universe is ultimately deterministic.

The only way for the universe to be truely undeterministic is if we can back out of things an infinate amount of times and never stop the 'boiling'.